Gods of Tyria

Here are the five Tyrian Gods, and here are their stories:



So what can we infer about them from their stories, and the dates which are noted on them? Furthermore it seems that there are matching gods for most classes but where are the gods for the Elementalists, Assassins and Ritualists? Most importantly the Elementalists, seeing as to how these gods are Tyrian gods not Canthan. (Perhaps Melandru is the Elementalist god? - Though it seems much more like the Ranger god - or perhaps it is some unknown god entirely?)

So, discuss the nature of these gods, why are some missing or "unseen" (perhaps look into that a little bit even?), share any knowledge you have on them, anything about their stories, what exactly is this "exodus" that is spoken of or any neat lil theories you may have!

P.S. I apologize to all of the 56k people out there, but I didn't really feel like typing all of that when it was all but too easy to screenshot.|||Assassins: Grenth and Lyssa

Earth ele: Melandru

Water ele: Grenth

Fire ele: Balthasar

Air Ele: Dwayna

Energy storage -> Lyssa?

Ritualists: Grenth|||Melandru is the godess of rangers. also, with the new bonuses on the rez shrines, none take +1 to elementalist attributes, like how there is on Melandru +1 to all ranger attributes. they all have +1 to each attribute individually, like +1 to fire magic. this means that there seems to be no patron god of elementalists..

and yeah it does seem weird that in Cantha they don't worship other gods, for instance one for ritualists and one for asassins, and mabey even one for elementalists.|||If you go before the rez shrines and kneel at them while your region has favor, the spirit that comes out we give you powers based on your class and which god that class worships. I can't remember off the top of my head right now which is which though.|||It goes like this:

Dwayna: Healing and Protection Monks, Air Elementalists

Grenth: Necromancers, Assassisns, Ritualists, and Water Elementalists

Balthazar: Warriors, Smiting Monks, Fire Elementalists

Lyssa: Mesmers, and often Assassins as well, I think?

Melandru: Ranger and perhaps Earth Elementalists. In Cantha, Melandru is sort of forgotten.

It's off the top of my head for the moment, but this comes out of the information I remembered from the Manuscrips.|||Ritualists worship Grenth most of the time. They also derive powers from their ancestors, which is an older magic than the magic the Gods gave to humans. Thus, the profession originally didn't worship any particular god, they already had their own Spiritual power.

Now, that power is blended with magic... which is why most Rits worship or at least respect Grenth.

Assassins also worship Grenth and Lyssa (Death and Illusion, after all). In cantha, it seems Grenth is the god they pray to most. However, the Canthans aren't as religious as Tyrians, they're much more spiritual if that makes sense. They're also more imperial.

Kurzicks DO worship the gods, though... they are even more religious than Tyrians.|||If your region has favor, and you find a Ressurection Shrine of a God, you'll find that their blessings are as follows:

Dwayna: +1 to Monk attributes or +1 to Air Magic.

Balthazaar: +1 to Warrior attributes or +1 to Fire Magic.

Grenth: +1 to Necromancer attributes, Ritualist attributes, or +1 to Water magic.

Melandru: +1 to Ranger attributes or +1 to Earth Magic.

Lyssa: +1 to Mesmer attributes, Assassin attributes, or +1 to Energy Storage.

Also they have a host of other blessings, depending on their type. For example, Dwayna gives +10 armor, while Menaldru gives +50 Health. Balthazaar gives 10% armor penetration to all attacks, and Lyssa gives +10 Energy.

Usually they will have 2 'buff-type' blessings, in addition to the attribute ones, and the Favor of the Gods (+2% Morale Bonus).|||I dont know exactly where this comes from...some of the Kurzick NPC's talk about it I think. Merlandru is sort of forgotten because of the whole havest temple incident - her charge, the living world, was warped and changed beyond return, and so the Kurzicks not to pray to her very often thinking she through the wardens are angry with them.

As for her being forgotten, this is true...In all my travels of Cantha (okay, I'm only at 63%) I've only seen 3 statues to her - one in Merlandru's Hope, On deep within the city and the one in Zin Ku Corridor (wrong name?)

Mularc|||Actually, the Kurzicks believe Melandru has abandoned them due to the petrification of the forest. She isn't forgotten, just "lost" in a sense due to the Echovald Forest being turned to stone. They feel Melandru was chased away by the Jade Wind and left the Kurzicks to fend for themselves. It may be true if you consider the nature of the Old Gods.|||The Luxons share a bit of a similar viewpoint, although I think I heard some NPC say that she's not gone, merely dormant, sleeping underneath the jade.

Dredge in Tyria

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there are Dredge in Sorrow's Furnace.

This raises interesting questions. For example, how did the Stone Summit get these Dredge? Do Canthans trade Dredge to Tyria, and the Stone Summit buy them from Lion's Arch? Do the Stone Summit go to Canthan themselves? Is there another port they have access to?|||THe manual sais that the Dredge dug a tunnel from SF to Cantha.

Quote from page 46 GW:F Manuscript

"in the echovald forest of cantha, a few small colonies of escaped dredge jealosly defend their prized freedom. THe offspring of a few desperate escapees form the SHiverpeaks who tunneled for hundreds of miles to reach their strange new home, these dredge have no reason to feel any friendship toward humans or anyone else- they escaped slavert on their own...."|||http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=402805

game zoology

i was going throuth the lore section and i thoiught to my self shouldnt we have something like that but about the diffrent races in tryia, cathia and soon to be elonia?

in my opinion we should sort the races into diffrent groups and go down into smaller detail like this:

alive--> fleshy--> beast--> charr--> monk --> sharman

or

animated --> titan --> element --> fire --> splinter --> ashen hulk

(the splinter bit is refuring to when a titan splits into more titans)

if there is something already out there plz tell me!

if not is anybod intrested in me starting 1?



ty all|||GuildWiki does arrange the monster pages into categories by species (Charr, devourer, etc), but it's certainly not as involved as what you're suggesting.



If you want to do something like that, more power to you |||ill see what my guildies think for the time being! lol

if anyones intrested just sign on here and leave ur IGN

ty|||Speaking of the Lore Forum, should this be there?|||Quote:








Speaking of the Lore Forum, should this be there?




Agreed.

Moving to the Lore Forum|||i didnt know whichforum to put zoology in so i guess lore it is! lol!

me and my guildies are now goin around a starting to make a few catagories from the creatures in the ascalon area (thats ruins of surmia all the way to grenadich) and in pre searing coz thats an easy place to start!

will post here when i got more details

"Tyria" solely refers to the Continent itself?

Was reading the GWP and GWF manuscripts, analyzing, comparing, you-know.

I noticed something, when the word "Tyria" is used, it is referring to the continent and not the "world" or "planet" (or whatever you want to call it).

Some examples:

1) The Forgotten only exists in the Continent of Tyria (if Elona is connected, then in Elona as well).

GWF Manuscript p.45 states that:


Quote:




"Tyrian visitors claim that the serpentine Naga resemble the Forgotten of the northern continent."




Simply means that the Forgotten never landed or touched the Continent of Cantha right?


Quote:




"The Serpents were summoned by the old gods out of the rift to 'shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them.'"




(GWP manuscript, forgot to write down the page number).

Which means, the old gods created the landmass of Tyria first than the other landmass, possible?




Quote:




786 BE or Late Pre-Imperial Era (275 PIE): Humans appear in the Continent of Cantha for the first time and settle the Northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent.

Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.




GWF Manuscript Unified Timeline.



Could it be that all this time we were interpreting the references to "Tyria" as referring to the "world" when it is literally referring to the continent itself?

Another example, The gods gave magic to the "inteligent race of Tyria", how about the other continents then?

Could it be that the other continents gained magic because they had travellers when the old gods gave the gift of magic?

Example, by the time the old gods gave the gift of magic, the Empire of the Dragon already have an embassy and an ambassador in the Kingdom of Ascalon for 99 years already. The embassy/ambassador was established on 100BE and the gods gave the gift of magic on 1BE.

Could some of the Shining Blade members originated from Elona, say like their leader? (can't remember her name). And we also know already (Scribe #10) that one of Elona's provinces borders the "Crystal Desert", then could it be that they acquired magic and learned of the old gods because of the Tyrian civilizations?



There are other stuff that is strongly supporting this, but there is one major problem:

GWP Manuscript said: "And the gods leave Tyria."

That one line contradicts everything that GWP and GWF manuscripts provides us (and maybe in-game texts as well) that the events in Tyria is solely to Tyria.

What do you think? I like to hear refutes to this claim ^_^ Will help in the interpretation of some stuff in the timeline.



PS

Some non-lore possibilities:

1) When they wrote the manuscript, they haven't finalized the SL of the other campaigns;

2) They haven't really thought of "the gods leave the Planet whatever" and wrote instead "the gods leave Tyria";

3) They just want to put conflicting SLs so we can't close it (which many modern writers do).

:p|||It could refer to both the continent and the world. In the Guidebook it also says that the gods were in Cantha at the same time they were in Tyria. It also shows that they left the exact time they left from the continent Tyria.

It also shows that the forgotten were also in Cantha as well, it's just that they were never disturbed by the native Canthans.|||I interpreted the "unhindered by the Forgotten" line as the Canthans were able to develop faster than Tyrians because there were no Forgotten on the continent.|||Yah, same here @Heelz.

@Yota, guidebook, you mean the one that is "sold separately" for Factions?

Was it by ANet or a third-party publication/writer ??

Coz if it is 'cannon', then it will be in conflict with ANet's GWF Manuscript (p45):


Quote:




"Tyrian visitors claim that the serpentine Naga resemble the Forgotten of the northern continent."




When they could just write "The people thinks that the serpentine Naga resemble the Forgotten."

Hmm, now I am curious what is in that guidebook.|||The historian who compiled the prophecies manuscripts refers to the GW world as Tyria because he is from Tyria. Tyria was more or less the "known world", just like how the Mediterranean was back in the ancient days.|||Either Gaile or the Frog said that when they say "Tyria" it is both the world and the continent of Prophecies.|||Ahh its official.

Hmm, now which is which. Which refers to the continent only and which refers to the "planet" in the GWP manuscript.

Some "Tyria" usage could be either so its hard to tell.

1) Forgotten - Tyria continent only?

2) the gods "took back" magic - Tyria continent only? - this seems to be concentrated too much on Tyria to be the "planet"?? - but then the "magic-war" could be happening in the different continents...



Hmm wait... it could be that the when the old gods gave magic "to Tyria" it was referring to the "continent itself".

And then, when the Bloodstones was spewn by the volcano, it spread across "Tyria" (the planet) and gave magic to the rest of the "planet Tyria". Coz, the "magic-war" was specifically referring to the continent of Tyria, which could be proven because the gods don't have any knowledge of the "magic-war" raging on (???)

Since the scattering of the Bloodstones "across Tyria" (GWP Manuscript), no one found it all yet and was even written that they will never get together again (if I remember it correctly, its not in my notes).

Hmm... ehe, thanks in advance (I'll go play in the Elite Missions for now).|||Quote:








I interpreted the "unhindered by the Forgotten" line as the Canthans were able to develop faster than Tyrians because there were no Forgotten on the continent.




From the guidbook (the one not sold with the game) we know that the Forgotten were in all Tyria, the planet. The word "unhidered" means basicly, undisturbed. The Guidbooks says the Cathan Humans 1st appeared on the tip of Shing Jea Island and built their exmpire from there. The Serpents started to withdraw so they never came in contact with the human residants of Cantha.|||Also, the Manuscripts talk about the Old Gods giving magick to the races of Tyria. In the Factions Lore Guide in the Prima Guide, it talks about Ritualists being in touch with the spirits before this, and adopting Grenth and their other various gods after magick was granted. In this paragraph, it specifically states "after magic was given to the races of Tyria", meaning the planet.|||Hmm, I should buy that Prima Guide then if it is considered "cannon".

Timeline of Prophicies and Factions

I have recently started taking my characters from cantha through prophicies and noticed when I start a mission it informs me that I am playing out the events prior to the Ascalionians arrival at Lions Arch.

This would mean that Prophicies and Factions are in the same time frame when you get to Lions ar in Prophicies and get to Kaineng City in Factions you have caught up to each other.

Jus an observation if noone had noticed.|||omg i just saw that. more reasons to flame on the factions team. could they at least make it so we had a real time frame goin here. consistancy ppl consistancy.|||Yeah, I saw that when I was compairing the timelines in the two books that came with the games. I was a bit dissapointed when I saw that the events of prophecies and the events of factions were happening at the same time. Probably means that the events of Nightfall will be the same.

It makes sense in a way since Factions characters can go and do Prophecies missions and take place in that story but seriously...I like it better in my head that they happen a year or so apart from each other. Gives time for the journey, time for everything to take place, etc.

But yeah...I know why they did it that way, but it's stilly silly to me. Especially if it remains the same with all the factions chapters...seems all of my characters are superheros to be able to travel the world in just a few days and save the day/world from various threats that all decided to suddenly happen at the same time. :D So THAT'S why we all have capes!|||Quote:








Yeah, I saw that when I was compairing the timelines in the two books that came with the games. I was a bit dissapointed when I saw that the events of prophecies and the events of factions were happening at the same time. Probably means that the events of Nightfall will be the same.

It makes sense in a way since Factions characters can go and do Prophecies missions and take place in that story but seriously...I like it better in my head that they happen a year or so apart from each other. Gives time for the journey, time for everything to take place, etc.

But yeah...I know why they did it that way, but it's stilly silly to me. Especially if it remains the same with all the factions chapters...seems all of my characters are superheros to be able to travel the world in just a few days and save the day/world from various threats that all decided to suddenly happen at the same time. :D So THAT'S why we all have capes!






If they were a year apart, it would mean your character would travel back in time when going back to Tyria.

Fine the way it is, it works. :)|||Quote:








If they were a year apart, it would mean your character would travel back in time when going back to Tyria.

Fine the way it is, it works. :)




eh, true. But for some reason factions characters going "back in time" doesn't bug me as much as everything happening at once. lol|||Quote:








If they were a year apart, it would mean your character would travel back in time when going back to Tyria.




mhmh sooooo my cantha character goes back in time to tyria makes babies with my female tyria character and then the child grows up and starts in tyria comes to lions arch and goes back to cantha ... now how old is me and my child!



*** spoiler ***





the answer of course is, we re all lvl 20. em ::flees:: lol|||Does this mean that Canthan Born characters and Tyrian Born characters vanquish their respective evils at the same time? I.E Lich dies the same time that Shiro dies?|||http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=414922

There is in fact a timeline being worked on, and all these issues have been brought up in some form in the development of the timeline. Please continue discussion there.

Guild Wars Timeline

Status: Draft #1

Description: This is the first draft "site" of GW Timeline I am compiling and creating. This draft does not cover the time period of the "game" itself (ie from the time your character breath to the last mission you finished).

Draft #1 covers mostly what is written in the GWP and GWF manuscripts. Also, explanations are not yet posted, one reason is that, some interpretation and data should be discussed first (posted one of the topic here in the Lore section already; will post the others later as I gather some more data and questions).

Suggestions, violent reactions, or maybe you already want to discuss stuff, then fire it on!!

Here's the link: http://gameshogun.ws/gw_timeline.php

Again, it is not final. (I want to play first in the Elite Mission Event.)|||Guild wiki already has one - Type History of Tyria in the search and you're golden. - its just missing the Elonian sections (which are empty anyways)|||The purpose of what Laibeus is doing is to compile an independant timeline based on what happens in-game. Thus, other timelines already complied would only serve as a means of comparison.

Tyria to Elona collection of Lore

I was in the desert earlier today and decided to pay a visit to our friendly Eloniand there to collect a bit of information here is what I got.

Turai Ossa :

Champion of Elona, Protector and Leader of his people (this would make him a Paragon I believe), his main claim to fame is the defeat at the battle of Jahai of one Palawa Joko scourge of the Vabbi.

Other information we can get from him is that two people followed in the desert after the Elonian came and that they believed they were the ones mentioned in the "Flameseeker Prophecies" (which tends to indicate those are very old as the Elonians of old already knew about them and about the fact they were made by Glint)

Lord Valador :

No indication besides the fact he was beside Turai Ossa at the battle of Jahai, his claim to fame is to have carried him from the field of battle when he died at the hands of the forgotten.

General Mendosa :

General of the Elonian army, he served at the battle of Jahai.

Commander Joziah :

He calls himself the vanquisher of Dragons (which would indicate there are dragons in Elonia) and lover of women.

I'll try to collect more lore while I am in the desert to complete the collection of facts we have in a mini reference.|||

Here's some more i got on my exploration of the desert, these bleached bones seem to be of an Elonian (story of how the grandfather spoke of Turai Ossa with reverence) and would indicate their presence in the desert after the expedition by Turai Ossa failed, it also would give us an idea of what their clothing looked like at the time.|||He's got three arrows in him. That;s gotta hurt.

I don't recall any monsters nearby that use arrows, so he may have been killed by is own people.

It's the strange brown boxes (chestnuts) that interest me, why are they carrying them and what are they?

I'm hoping Palawa Joko will be given more background information in Nightfall letting us know why he was the scrouge of Vabbi. I'm sure the Elonians must have knew of him for his death to have such vibrant stories.

-Art|||Aren't the chestnuts those things that light up near the teleporters? I'm not sure where that corpse is,but for all we know Devourers could have killed him. They shoot arrows out of their tails like bone fiends.|||Vabbi is one of the 3 Elonian nations if I'm correct.|||@Art Yi Mor : What is this brown box you are talking about? If you want to know what the corpse is holding it is a book.

Concerning the location of that corpse it is northeast of the area just outside Dunes of Despair.|||The brown boxes in question are the activators on the pedastals that engage the teleporters throughout the Desert.

lore conventions ...

I've been haunting these forums for quite a bit of time and what has been marking me the most is the fact there are no lore conventions to be found (or at least I didn't find any).

What do I mean by Lore conventions well simply a collection of definitions and settings for what is commonly used in lore postings.



For example of definitions:

- Fact : Anything that has been documented by in game lore or out of game official lore

- Theory : Explanation of a possible Lore event by a poster

- someone being good or evil : generic term being used to indicate their behaviour towards a certain element, most of the time used to declare their intention towards the human race.



For example of settings:

Fact


Quote:




this is a fact




Theory

this is a theory

...

I was actualy hoping to see some conventions in the rules for this forum as it would have helped with going through the Lore on some points and would have allowed me to make the split between a simple theory and a theory using facts to bring a modicum of proof.|||Uh...all I can say is read the sticky and use the search feature. Maybe it isn't in the setup you want, but I think the stickies cover Lore Forum policies and procedures very well.

Plus, most people know the difference between a hypothesis, a theory, and a fact, just from school. But for reference:

A fact is a undisputed truth. It can be proven again and again, and is backed up by strong evidence, either from in-game sources, or official publications.

A theory is an observation and conclusion backed by known facts, but not necessarily undisputable. It is the product of being well informed and well researched, and is based on testable and observable situations and circumstances, usually from in-game.

A hypothesis is an idea. It is not proven, and is not a theory. It is the first step before research, and isn't necessarily backed by facts as much as a theory. Usually more research into a hypothesis will confirm or deny it. After significant research and development, if a hypothesis is still plausible, it may become a theory.

Lack of "epicness"?

Hello

I'd like to share my thoughts about the outposts\towns in Guild Wars...

Remembered the fancy cool-looking (pen and paper) artworks of GW before the initial release?

Ascalon-City (pre-searing) looks like Minas' Tirith from LOTR and Lion's Arch has the looks of a big city with skyscraper-like buildings...

When I first arrived there with my good ol' Warrior, I was a bit disappointed...

"Is this it? Where is the epicness from the beautiful concept arts?"

For me, Epicness means:

-A lot of buildings

-Closed areas (Accessible buildings and areas where a real "roof" exists etc.)

-Any other attractions which make the outposts\towns unique

I'm not sure if the Lore Forum is the right place to post this topic, but I couldn't find a better place...

Discuss|||imo, the cities are so big, there's no need to be inside any buildings.|||Quote:








imo, the cities are so big, there's no need to be inside any buildings.




Ever wondered about the merchants and traders standing all the time outside in the cold (Droks) trying to sell things to the player?

Traders, afaik, are indeed wealthy enough to invest some money into a small hut

and tbh, traders standing outside look really odd... |||Not Lore, I'm sending this to the Community Lounge.|||yeah i was rather disappointed by this too i was really hoping there would be huge cities with buildings you can actually enter instead even the biggest towns are little more than camps|||I dunno, if there were thousands of adventurers coming to my city, I'd be sure to lock my door too. The last thing I need are rangers trailing mud all over the place, warriors doing disco dances, or just the knowledge of assassins in my house... I've always thought the ability to just barge into someones house in an RPG was a little dumb...

Wait a second... do you think any of the female characters would ever come over? Hmm...|||Just my two cents:

Firstly, I regret to say that I thought of an Enzyte commercial when I read the title of this post...

Secondly, I think that the town size is fine within reason. Concept art is almost always done far and above what's actually animated on screen. Its purpose is not to provide exact blueprints, but rather a source of guided inspiration.

emblem of the gods?

while working on a sketch I wanted something for a piece of cloth.. just to get rid of a blank area, and I remembered something I saw when I was messing around with the avatar of grenth.

http://xs.to/xs.php?f=gw162.png&h=xs105&d=06355

now.. is the emblem on the cloth relevant? has it been seen elsewhere maybe as a general emblem of the pantheon.. or do the other avatars have different emblems suggesting an indentity to each god?|||Without seeing the other avatars, I don't think we can know for certain. I do, however, want to point out that the emblem bears a resemblence to the White Mantle emblem (although the two are noticably different).|||Elona is known as the Land of the Golden Sun (Source: NCSoft Press Release August 2006, therefore this could simply be a reference to Elona.

As Quintus said, it's difficult to come to any conclusion without seeing the other avatars.|||I wonder if anyone took any screenies during the event like I did?|||Not from behind, I'm afraid... I do know that Balthazar had a cape, but I can't remember what was on it...

White Mantle in the Fissure of Woe

In the "Army of Darkness" quest in the Fissure of Woe, we have to kill a "Priest of Menzies". Menzie is lord of destruction, the half-brother of Balthazar and this priest is belonging to his shadow army.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Priest_of_Menzies

In fact, if you look carefully at this "Priest of Menzie", we see that it is a White Mantel Priest (a bit modified). I have not the screenshot here, but on his back you can even see the symbol of the White Mantel.



Do someone have an explanation to this ? Is it a link between the White Mantel, Menzie and the Murzaats ? Do the White Mantels that we kill join the Shadow Army ?

[EDIT]

The shadow mesmers are also White Mantel



Shadow Mesmer

If all the White Mantel once dead join the Shadow Army of the Lord of destruction, this would break the theory that the White Mantel is not evil.|||View of the back.


Quote:








I have not seen any mention of this but while in the Fissure of Woe fighting shadow warriors, i thought i saw a design on there back... on the spell casters... and look what i found, A white mantle emblem (its distorted due to them moving)



and also, all shadow "men" have the back spikes/wings/whatever charastic of Enchanted armor, the casters also seem to wear armor strikenly simular to the White Mantle.

EDIT: Added a edited version that is brightened to see the emblem easier




I have no doubt these were members of the White Mantel. The spikes, glowing eyes and so on are results for being part of the Shadow Army.|||Maybe all those who were 'evil' in real life are given to the Shadow Army instead of being allowed to go on. Whether it's because the yhad evil intentions or just evil deeds with good intentions, however.........|||Perhaps those White Mantle were Chosen who were sacraficed to the Bloodstones. It may be the they aren't White Mantle at all, but rather, a type of specter that takes on the form of something from the heroes mind, and forms that. The White Mantle take on the role of "villian" in Prophecies, regardless if they are or not, and may end up being displayed as villians.

Still furthermore, it could be as other people suggested, that this is the equivelent of "Hell" for those unpure Mantle.|||simplist idea, obviously not all white mantle are evil, but some certainly seem like it (the guy on the jungle bloodstone certainly seems a bit evil). Even real world religions have had a fair bit of corruption and evil even if the majority are good. It'd be interesting if the shadow army were a split-off group, who were white mantle but started looking into more evil methods (for power, to satisfy to mursatt, etc) that lead them onto a different path.|||Well, something to consider is the question if these Shadow Mantle are in anyway connected to the White Mantle. Just because they look like the Mantle doesn't mean they necessarily are.

Also, the God of Destruction is the one who controls them, could there be some connection there?|||Quote:




Perhaps those White Mantle were Chosen who were sacraficed to the Bloodstones.




Unless I am false, the Chosen's spirits are trapped into the soul battery and used to keep the door closed. I don't know why they would be in that place.


Quote:




It may be the they aren't White Mantle at all, but rather, a type of specter that takes on the form of something from the heroes mind, and forms that. The White Mantle take on the role of "villian" in Prophecies, regardless if they are or not, and may end up being displayed as villians.




Well, when you kill them, they don't change form, disappear, turn into dust or something else. But, as it is a "shadow" army, it could be some sort of illusions, I agree.


Quote:




Still furthermore, it could be as other people suggested, that this is the equivelent of "Hell" for those unpure Mantle.




Maybe some sort of punishment for those who try to rebel. Brrr, scary |||Quote:








Maybe some sort of punishment for those who try to rebel. Brrr, scary




You know, that makes sense. If the Mursaat have powers over souls such as we've seen, they may also have the power to banish souls to some kind of limbo such as the Fissure.

I think the fact that it is a "shadow" army, should tell us that these aren't necessarily real people, or real souls, but rather a corruption or reflection of them.|||How, then, are the Mursaat related to the god Menzies? It's clear that this shadow army serves the god Menzies, and yet Menzies marks them (or they mark themselves) with the symbol of the White Mantle: a human-created organization which worships the Mursaat as gods.

Something's not right here.|||well menzies isnt among the standard pantheon, I wouldnt be surprised if he and some of the othe rlesser recognized gods (like Duhm or w/e the underworld one is) were aiding teh mursaat in their anti-old gods movements, or even orchestrating them.

Evennia from Elona...

I have found a screenshot of an elonian NPC from hexe and TTH wolfgang's Nightfall coverage

The image immediately brought back to my mind questions that have been repeatedly asked here on these lore forums:

#1 Is Evennia from Elonia?

#2 Is she, in fact, Elonian Royalty?

#3 Is she a Paragon?



My answers:

#1 Probably yes.

#2 Perhaps.

#3 Current info makes this a No. Female paragons seem to have different armors than the one worn by Evennia.

My reasons for answering Yes to 1 and 2 are the armor similarities:

- The fan shape on the back of the neck

- The flared arm guards

The fact that the elonian armor on the right is more adorned could indicate royalty or a position of power; while Evennia's is alot more plain. Perhaps this is a result of Evennia living with those Rebel Shining Blade?

I'd like to see your insights on this.|||Maybe Evennia just hasn't saved up enough gold to get her 15k.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Anyway, those armors do look rather similar, and it's nice to see some kind of proof for all these "Evennia is Elonian" theories floating around here. I'm not sure about her being royalty, but it IS possible that she's Elonian. We just won't know for sure until Nightfall comes out. Although...just because she isn't in Nightfall doesn't mean she ISN'T Elonian, I guess. It would just mean that we don't have any conclusive proof one way or the other.|||Instead of typing out a long drawn out explanation of why I disagree, I will respond visually with a counter-example of why you cannot base things solely on looks:



Do you see my point? Two very similar looking things can be so completely unrelated to the point of sheer lunacy of comparison.|||that's an awesome comparison quintus lol|||Quote:








Instead of typing out a long drawn out explanation of why I disagree, I will respond visually with a counter-example of why you cannot base things solely on looks:

Do you see my point? Two very similar looking things can be so completely unrelated to the point of sheer lunacy of comparison.




"Sheer lunacy" is a bit strong, Quint.

The "looks" I was basing the comparison on was the Armor; not physical resemblance, like your example.

Plus, the comparison you gave can mean a couple of things:

- They were both taken during the same era, when those moustaches were in style.

- That both Hitler and Charlie Chaplin had the same barber. (a bit of a stretch, but its possible. Apparantly, anything goes.)

Let's stick with comparisons in-game: Rastigan the Eternal wears FoW armor. Some PvE players wear FoW armor. Safe bet to say that both armors were made in the same place: FoW

If you must make a long drawn out comparison; then go ahead - that's what scientific discourse is all about.|||Elonian, yes very probably.

Royalty? Why the hell would she be royalty? Her armour's more plain, royalty don't generally rush off ot other nations and the only similarity is armour.|||well one thing is rather certain and that is that she isn't a paragorn but a monk (she heals a bit in ice caves) . The rest is pure speculation.|||you're right, maybe Saidra and Evennia came from Elona because even how they speak seems a bit elonianish ^^ lol|||She is not a Paragon, she uses monk skills.

Then again, perhaps she is a dual-proffesion, just like players.....

She can be Paragon/ monk|||Quote:








you're right, maybe Saidra and Evennia came from Elona because even how they speak seems a bit elonianish ^^ lol




I would have chalked Saidra's accent to the possibily of her being an Orrian survivor herself. That or she'd been for some reason raised by the dwarves, but my first idea sounds more reasonable.

Also, Evennia may have been in the Mantle herself, but saw what they really did with the "Chosen" and made a break for it.

The infusion of magic into the cultures

One common thread in Guild Wars is that magic is a gift form the gods to all the thinking races. It is everywhere, all inclusive, and somewhat easy to access. Even the pesants can be seen using the most basic of warrior skills.

My thought is this, with a vast majority of classes being casters or at least partly caster (aka using Energy), what kind of effect does it have on the cultures? In a world where Monks can easily cure people of disease, how healthy is the average citizen? Or, how rich is the average Monk, and do the caster 'elite' of society work to keep down the pesantry, as the merchantile class did during the 1500's in our own world.

Discuss. |||It looks like the ability to heal is posessed by almost everyone. Even the lowest Krytan peasent seems to have a healing signet (which is a ring, not a magical ability, but the point stands).

Because of the nature of monks, as.....well monks, they seem to be humble and not charge to heal, at least not to the point of unaffordability. From what we've seen of Ascalonian culture pre-Searing, it looks like Warriors, Mesmers, and Elementists are generally among the nobility.|||I agree with QA. Monks are too much Ascetics to be nobility, except in the case of organizations like the white mantle, where religion and state are very very very infused. Rangers are off in the forest and necromancers are generally in their own underground organization.

That leaves warriors, ele's, and mesmers. At least for Ascalon.

Where Assassins and ritualists fit in for cantha im not sure. Assassins seem to be much too tools of the state to be nobility per se (who are usualy more hands off). Ritualists seem relatively in touch with the surreal as well.

Emporer Kisu is a warrior after all, along with Adlebern and Rurik.|||Actually,Emperor Kisu is a Ritualist.|||Quote:








Actually,Emperor Kisu is a Ritualist.




Actually, based on the staves he carries with him in cutscenes, he's probably a mesmer.

Assassins in Cantha appear to congregate in guilds, just like any other tradesmen in a medieval era. Some guilds (like the Obsidian Flame) appear to be state-sponsored, while others (like the Am Fah) appear linked to underground elements. There are also freelance assassins (like Panaku) that simply hire their services out to the highest bidder, but I haven't seen very much evidence of them in the game, suggesting they are rarities.

It's fairly obvious that the state-sponsored assassin guilds operate very much like covert agencies in the modern world; specialising in espionage, sabotage and assassination, they are used to perform discrete tasks for the Emperor (or more likely, the Emperor's Hand) that would otherwise be frowned upon in normal judicial or social circles.

There's less information on the role Ritualists play in Canthan society, but given that Canthan society still appears to largely embrace the practice of ancestor worship, Ritualists would probably occupy something of a religious and spiritual role, much like the religion of Shinto in modern day Japan. Lore appears to suggest that while their influence in society has waned with the increasing worship of the True Gods, ritualists are still very much held in respect by the Canthan populace.|||Quote:








Actually, based on the staves he carries with him in cutscenes, he's probably a mesmer.

omissis




i agree with your theory, however Kisu is a Ritualist :)

the game manual says:

Name: Kisu

Profession: Ritualist|||Because he's the Emperor, I hardly think he is bound to carry only the staves of his profession. Odds are he never uses his skills anyway, because he has so many lictors to do everything for him. Whatever he is, it is probably only ceremonial anyway.

If anything, the Ritualist carrying mesmer staves just shows that.|||Assassin's probably either band together into groups or work as part of a whole guild. They seem to do the dirty tasks. Probably it's split between those who are mere killers for hire, fanatic killers who like it and those who see it as something important and necessary (state ones).|||i just assumed kisu is a warrior based on his dance.|||Quote:








i agree with your theory, however Kisu is a Ritualist :)

the game manual says:

Name: Kisu

Profession: Ritualist




Ahh, right. I forgot about that. Well, perhaps as Emperor, he liked the design of the mesmer staves so much he had a ritualist staff crafted for him with a mesmer staff skin.

Ok, I'm dead...........................

Ok, I'm dead, but where shall i go next?

According to Glint, dead people go to Hall of Heros; According to dwarfs, you gota to go to Great Forge; According to Canthans, you go to Eternal Paradise.

So, where will i end up with after i'm dead?????|||Ahhh, a great religous dilemma.

Is it heaven, hades or Valhalla?

Maybe they are all the same place, or maybe when you die, you're just dead and that's it.



*Sits under Lotus tree to contemplate this further*|||Canthans certainly seem to have it best, i d say go with Canthans to Eternal Paradise, or to Halls of Heroes if you re a Hardcore PvPer :P |||Maybe within the Heavens, there are different "heavenly countries"? <_<|||Quote:








Ahhh, a great religous dilemma.

Is it heaven, hades or Valhalla?

Maybe they are all the same place, or maybe when you die, you're just dead and that's it.



*Sits under Lotus tree to contemplate this further*




I think you'd mean Heaven, the Elysian Fields, or Valhalla, since Hades is just the name of the dude that runs the place, not usually the name of the place. Also when hades is used to mean a place, it's more a hellish place (pagan and all that) than good.

I don't know much about this Canthan "Eternal Paradise", so correct me if I make an embarassing mistake, but this sounds like the Judeochristian sense of where good souls go. It could also fit with the Elysian fields, I think, though I forget exactly what the nature of those fields are, and what goes on there.

The great forge, merely in the name, which conveys a sense of continued work for a deity after death, sounds like the Ancient Egyptian idea of the Fields of Osiris. In the mythology of Ancient Egypt, the heart of a person would be weighed against the feather of truth upon that person entering the afterlife. If the heart was heavy with dirty deeds, done dirt cheap, the person's heart (and thus soul) would be fed to Amit, the devourer (hmm...). If the person was pure of heart, and had been all-around good, they would be taken to work in the Fields of Osiris, which was somehow seen as a good reward in the afterlife.

The Hall of Heroes, merely in the fact that we living people can still fight there, seems like the Norse idea of paradise (not Valhalla, which was, I believe, just where the Gods were). In Norse mythology, a man who died valiantly in battle (a "good" man) would go to viking heaven, where he would fight all day and drink all night. A bad man, or a coward, would go to hel, which was cold.|||Quote:








Ok, I'm dead, but where shall i go next?

According to Glint, dead people go to Hall of Heros; According to dwarfs, you gota to go to Great Forge; According to Canthans, you go to Eternal Paradise.

So, where will i end up with after i'm dead?????




According to me you just res at a random god ;)|||Quote:








I think you'd mean Heaven, the Elysian Fields, or Valhalla, since Hades is just the name of the dude that runs the place, not usually the name of the place. Also when hades is used to mean a place, it's more a hellish place (pagan and all that) than good.




From wikipedia:

Hades (From ᾍδης, Hadēs, or Ἅιδης, H�idēs, Greek for "unseen"[1]) refers to both the ancient Greek abode of the dead and the god of that underworld. The word originally referred to just the god; haidou, its genitive, was short for "the house of Hades". Eventually, the nominative, too, came to designate the abode of the dead.



Elysian Fields was a part of Hades



Also from Wikipedia:

There were several sections of Hades, including the Elysian Fields (contrast the Christian Paradise or Heaven), and Tartarus, (compare the Christian Hell). Greek mythographers were not perfectly consistent about the geography of the afterlife.

In most instances, the deceased, good and evil alike, just went to Hades.



Joo r pwned!!!1!1!!!1|||Easy answer. You end up where everyone else ends up: on the ground, underneath a giggling Alesia. *tee hee hee*|||I think the Great Forge would be pretty cool place to go to.|||Quote:








Easy answer. You end up where everyone else ends up: on the ground, underneath a giggling Alesia. *tee hee hee*




Not true.

Some people end up on the ground at Sister Tai's feet. Who is, of course, claiming that "don't worry -- if you die, I'll have you back in no time."

White Mantle: Mursaat counter or support to the Sunspears?

Saul D'Alessio was the founder of the White Mantle and the first known human to make contact with the Unseen Ones.

Which turned out to be nothing else but the Mursaat.

A former gambler, he was exiled from Kryta for his debts to an infamous gambling guild shortly before the Charr invasion. In his exile, he wandered for many days before stumbling upon a city belonging to the Unseen Gods and pledging his service to them. Returning to Kryta he gained many followers and was able to help turn the tide of the war with the help of the Unseen Ones. The White Mantle rejects the worship of the Old Gods.



OK, so much about the history of the White Mantle.

The White Mantle always appeared to me like a Paladin order (with a good mix of Ku Klux Clan, Knights Templar and the term "Confessor" could be from Terry Goodkinds Sword of Truth, if you know these novels) their goals were noble, though they turned out to be fighting for the Mursaat in the end. I doubt many besides Justicar Hablion and Confessor Dorian knew much about that.

The symbol of the White Mantle resembles a stylised Mursaat. At least people say so, I agree, but it is very stylized, would not have guessed that.

The gauntlets, boots and, to a lesser extent, masks of the Mursaat resemble those of the Enchanted Armors in the Crystal Desert. It do not know whether this is intended to hint at a connection or merely the reuse of graphics. Or me simply seeing connections where there are none.

Hablion and Dorian have very dark skin, darker than the other Krytans. They are also elevated in rank and the driving force behind the not so honorable goals of the White Mantle.

Are these two from Elona? Were the Mursaat forming the White Mantle as an army to fight

- against the Sunspears?

- alongside the Sunspears?

After all, it seems that the Mursaat wanted the Door of Komalie to stay closed.



Now it gets a bit complicated and confusing. The Lich betrayed and tricked both the Ascalonian Heroes as well as the Mursaat and the White Mantle.



Both Orders, White Mantle and Sunspears, are military orders with all the many titles and ranks and while the White Mantle assumed the role of the Protectors of Kryta, which lead to rivalries with the Lion Guard, despite them in general being friendly to everyone before the escalation, the Sunspears have the same role in Elona.



Were Hablion and Dorian not the villains we believe them to be? They gave a rather sinister impression in the cutscenes, but actually they were the good guys!

They sacrificed innocent lives, but it sounds like the choice of a lesser evil. The Mursaat needed this to keep the Soul Batteries charged and the door closed.

Interesting thought: The Mursaat did not seem to need this many sacrifices on the Bloodstones before, the White Mantle is/was a VERY young organization.



Jeff Strain described Nightfall as the "Apocalypse" and closing of a storyline connecting Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall (btw: GW will continue, just THIS storyline is meant, no worries).

I hope Nightfall does give some nice answers that really tie together all the loose ends, because the more I think about it, the more confusing it gets. |||I would say before the Mursaat met Alessio they were sacrifising their own kind to power their soul batterys...

I felt that i and the Lich were the villans in the Prophecies storyline... If i knew that the Mursaat where helping Tyria (in a very twisted way) i would try to communicate with them and together we could find a way to feed the soul batterys.

But that would make a very diferent story with less fighting.

Let's see if the Mursaat have a space reserved in GW:Nightfall. Or that they give us a hint about who are they really as a society then as an army.|||I send that, I think The Seer actually the players... He looks like a being of Shadow just like the Nightfall themed guys. And to me the Mursaat don't really look evil. They have more of an angelic look if you ask me.

Doesn't The Seer direct the player to opening the Door of Komalie?

If Abbaddon is really the new evil god it would all make sense with the Nightfall storyline and the connection between the continents.|||You know, I do get tired of the "Hey, dark skin must be Elonian!" I actually find it rather racist. It is much more probable that Dorian and Hablion are just Krytans with tan skin. And to be honest, they really aren't that much darker than any Krytan peasant, they just don't have heavy tattoos like the others, probably because they had them removed, or were from nobility and never had to get them. Keep in mind that every ethnicity on Earth has a "range" of skin tones, as well.

Also, I really don't see the connection between the White Mantle and Nightfall, or the Mursaat and Nightfall. I think we will hear references to both, especially the Mursaat, because they kept whatever was in Abaddon's Mouth back for eons, but I'm not sure if we will see the Mursaat or White Mantle again. The White Mantle has been soundly defeated, and are more or less a broken organization. They still have followers, and they still have substantial military might in areas like the D'Alessio Seaboard, Riverside Province, and Shaemoor, but I'd guess they are probably too focused on trying to reconstruct their inner workings, and are less concerned with what is goig on in far away places like Cantha, and Elona.

As for the Mursaat, I have no idea. I'd personally love to see them, but I don't think it is likely. Other than henchman, ANet hasn't really brought characters back from other chapters. I believe there will be lots of references to Prophecies and Factions, but I'm not sure if any races, or plot movers other than Mhenlo and co. will make an appearence. Fingers crossed though.|||People in deserts or other hot countries do tend to have tan skin due to exposure from the sun. Elonia is a desert and so it would fit too, it's more an observation than racism I'd say. Hablion, Dorian and even Evvenia may all have indeed been from Elonia, but that doesn't mean it's a plot or anything; they may just have migrated at some point.

However, I also find it more likely that they are Krytans and merely don't have the tattoos. Or perhaps the tattoos are covered by their clothing; they do have more complex garments on after all.|||Very true, FV. But, Krytan's tend to have a South American look and feel, in terms of accent and skin tone. I'm Mexican, so I've been to South and Central America many times in my life, and I can tell you, skin tones range from light tan, almost white, to dark brown, almost black, and they are all from a common culture. Different things, genetics and exposure included, affect the expression of melanin in the skin and the tone of the skin as well. I honestly think that Evennia, Dorian, Hablion, and the rest of Krtya are all from Kryta. I doubt an Elonian would be a higher up in the White Mantle anyway.|||south american eh? I suppose thats from your decent. I always thought Krytans looked Indian to me. (indian as in Real Indians, from India).|||What I'm really starting to wonder is if the Mursaat know of what's going on at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings,Dragon Festival attack/siege,and now Elona. The Mursaat remind me,in a way,of myself in the fact they like to know what's going on in the world. Not only that,but from the looks of it they like having sources of information in different places hidden in dark corners.

We know they aren't entirely destroyed,just the branch of them in Tyria. For all we know they may have small colonies or outposts all over the world to gather information and keep in touch with things. What I'm trying to say is the Mursaat don't seem like the kind of people to miss these sorts of events.|||I'd say the Mursaat almost certainly are aware of what's going on. They still have three main branches remaining--civilian, Janthir, Mursaat City (Jungle), and the extradimensional forces, although some of these may be the same. The only branch that was "destroyed" were the Mursaat defending the forts at Komalie. I don't think we've seen the last of the Mursaat, whether or not they are in Nightfall, however, is yet to be seen.|||Maybe one day we'll get a Mursaat henchman who can shed some light on his/her race's goals. Hey, one can dream!

Lyssa and Melandru, why have you not opened your domains to the faithful?

Balthazar and Grenth and opened up their domains for humans to pit themselves against their harsh domains. Grenth, I imagine simply wants more souls and Balthazar enjoys the combat.

That leaves Lyssa and Melandru, neither are providing access to their domains. They have left tantalizing evidence that there is a possible access point (ToA) to their world yet provide none. Why is that? Are they untrusting of humans? Are they fearfull they will spoil their domain? With the absence of and true display of power do they hurt themselves or help themselves?

Lyssa is the goddess of beauty & illusion, both are powerful against the weak of mind. Does she feel humans have gained enough power to possibly challenge her is that why she grants no access? I doubt it, all worshippers of Lyssa are able to wield the power given to them by her and defeat even the mightiest of foes.

Melandru is the goddess of earth & nature, both powerful indeed. The ability to control nature slow, yet strong once set. Yet humans are able to destroy and/or control nature utterly, as can be seen if you travel to cantha city. As any Geomancer will atest the ability to control the earth around you provides some of the best defensives and some offensives. Seeing at Melandru is able to defend herself quite well, I can not see why she does not allow access either.

I believe they do not provide access not because they themselves are fearful of humans, but they have created worlds which they fear will be spoiled by human access. With that said do they not even trust their faithful to adhere to the tenants of their laws? I find that strange, to create a world that only they will see and allow no humans access to bring back word of the beauty and deadlyness of the worlds?|||Melandru is the goddess of nature, so she may simply not have a extraearthly realm, and Lyssa, being the only visably noncorporeal goddess, may have a realm that is simply inaccessible to humans, or uncomprehenisble to a fragile mind. If it is a realm of chaos and illusion, it may drive those who enter it insane if they are not adequetly prepared.|||The same could be applied to Melandru aswell. Perhaps the only ones allowed inside the realm of Melandru are those who truely understand nature and it's patron godess: the druids.|||Melandru thrives where nature thrives, in the Jungles, in the grasslands of Kryta, even in the frozen forests of the Shiverpeaks, the druids being the only ones able to truly understand nature and the course of time as showed in the quest you get at Druid's Overlook, I forgot its name though.

As for Lyssa, even the most complicated mind would get shattered trying to comprehend the machinations of Lyssa's extraearthy realm. If Lyssa is the ruling goddess(es) of Mesmers, who are undoubted masters at subverting the mind and abilities of others, be it slowly and painfully, or noticeably and harshly. Friends would turn upon friends, loves upon lovers, and some would just slump to the ground, mumbling to themselves about past troubles as their mind is slowly picked apart by the chaos within the realm. Grim as it is, it could be the truth.|||what about dwayna? |||Quote:








Melandru is the goddess of nature, so she may simply not have a extraearthly realm, and Lyssa, being the only visably noncorporeal goddess, may have a realm that is simply inaccessible to humans, or uncomprehenisble to a fragile mind. If it is a realm of chaos and illusion, it may drive those who enter it insane if they are not adequetly prepared.




How do you figure Lyssa has no tangible body?

Remember when you bow to her alter, it's not her that comes forth, it's her muse.

Lyssa is quite tangible, as is obvious from the scriptures of Lyssa.

Dwayna is the only god we can actually summon, the rest are just representations of themselves and not actually what they look like, as their statues show.

Melandru most likely has no special realm as she is the god of the earth.|||Quote:








Melandru is the goddess of nature, so she may simply not have a extraearthly realm, and Lyssa, being the only visably noncorporeal goddess, may have a realm that is simply inaccessible to humans, or uncomprehenisble to a fragile mind. If it is a realm of chaos and illusion, it may drive those who enter it insane if they are not adequetly prepared.




You could say the same of Grenth- if Grenth's realm is the land of the dead, wouldn't dying be the only way to get there? But this is obviously not the case, and it's entirely possible that the other divine realms are similarly accessable to mortals.



The main thing, I think, is a matter of permission- Grenth and Balthazar both allow mortal humans to travel to their personal realms because they require aid to deal with some problem (Menzie's armies in the Fissure of Woe, the Terrorweb Dryders imprisoning the Reapers). Presumably, if Melandru or Lyssa (or Dwayna) ever have a problem that can only be solved by mortal hands, they'd open up their realm to mortals.|||Quote:








As for Lyssa, even the most complicated mind would get shattered trying to comprehend the machinations of Lyssa's extraearthy realm. If Lyssa is the ruling goddess(es) of Mesmers, who are undoubted masters at subverting the mind and abilities of others, be it slowly and painfully, or noticeably and harshly. Friends would turn upon friends, loves upon lovers, and some would just slump to the ground, mumbling to themselves about past troubles as their mind is slowly picked apart by the chaos within the realm. Grim as it is, it could be the truth.




I like how you put that. I agree; I think in Lyssa's case, humans may not be able to comprehend her realm, and the results would be far from beautiful.|||Quote:








How do you figure Lyssa has no tangible body?

Remember when you bow to her alter, it's not her that comes forth, it's her muse.

Lyssa is quite tangible, as is obvious from the scriptures of Lyssa.

Dwayna is the only god we can actually summon, the rest are just representations of themselves and not actually what they look like, as their statues show.

Melandru most likely has no special realm as she is the god of the earth.




Perhaps you need to read the baseplates of the Lyssa statues again. Lyssa is the only goddess (if I recall) who changes forms, and her nature as the goddess of illusion seems to strengthen this. Also, her muse is the only "crazy" avatar. By crazy I mean it has no real form, and the avatars are generally a reflection of the nature of the deity, thus Balthazar has a warrior, Melandru has a druid, and Lyssa has a noncorporeal floating face (a muse).

I also think the user that said we aren't allowed in because we have no reason to be there is on to something.|||A more plausible, and simple reason would be that those realms were not being attacked..

As we can see UW and FoW were under attack by some forces, that's why the Gods want us to fix it for them...

What is the Guild Wars Realm?

We have Tyria and Cantha .... but ..... they are contenants on what planet/realm?

Any thoughts or evidence?|||The planet itself is named "Tyria" as well, as far as I know.|||I dont think that was thought about when GW first came out... the land of Tyria was at first look all there was. Perhaps the planet/realm will get a name as more continents are 'discovered'|||after all, the world, minus the monsters, would only take about 3-4 hours to walk across, and thats only about the same size as a large country, so there must be more to be found.|||The planet itself is named Tyria. Yes there must be other continents but at the moment I don't think that the Lore Forum is considering the continents on a real world scale. It's just about the one area where everyone accepts it as just a game mechanic.|||We have no evidence Tyria is, in fact a Planet. It could simply be some kind of plane of existence; we assume that it is a Planet since that's all we know it could be. However, given the nature of the Guild Wars universe and the fact it's set in a Fantasy setting, other possibilities do exist.|||Quote:








We have Tyria and Cantha .... but ..... they are contenants on what planet/realm?

Any thoughts or evidence?




There is plenty of evidence, besides the simple fact of NPC's talking about two distinct continents and developers refering to them as such, you can also travel from one to the other on a ship. Not a spaceship, not a starship, a seafaring vessel.

Also there are healthy and active trade routes between the two, as well as other socioeconomic relations and emmigrations.

There is absolutely no doubt that they are on the same planet and continuity.


Quote:








We have no evidence Tyria is, in fact a Planet. It could simply be some kind of plane of existence; we assume that it is a Planet since that's all we know it could be. However, given the nature of the Guild Wars universe and the fact it's set in a Fantasy setting, other possibilities do exist.




That's a bit premature don't you think? There is an abundance of evidence to support the Tyrian planet. First off, we have Gaile and other developers publically saying that Tyria is both a continent and the namesake of the planet. The Manuscripts speak of Lord Odran travelling to different planets via the Mists. Ships are able to sail and there is a compass (which means there must be a magnetic north) which also leads credience to the fact that this is a planet. In areas such as the Ring of Fire, there are upswellings of magma from beneath the surface of the planet (lava). Finally, the presence of a moon means that this must be a planet. A flat "plane of existance" would not have the necessary gravitational pull to keep a moon in orbit as it would not be spinning and would not be a ball.

One last undisputable piece of evidence: gravity. The fact that we can stand on the ground without floating off into space proves, for a fact, that Tyria is a spinning planet with a gravitational force keeping things on the ground.

Now, is the planet Tyria in the same universe as Earth? That can be disputed, and probably never proven or disproven. The Manuscripts do talk of the "mutiverse", which suggests parallel universes do exist.

That is largely irrelevent though, as it does not change the planetary fact that is Tyria.|||then it would be incorrect to call prophecy made characters "Tyrians" while the factions characters "Canthans" as Gaile and the rest kept mentioning. since everyone are Tyrians, there're only the distinction of Ascalonians, Krytans, Canthans etc.|||Quote:








then it would be incorrect to call prophecy made characters "Tyrians" while the factions characters "Canthans" as Gaile and the rest kept mentioning. since everyone are Tyrians, there're only the distinction of Ascalonians, Krytans, Canthans etc.




Not techinically. When working with symantics like that, you have to take context into account. Because Tyria is a planet and a namesake continent, it is important to consider how you are using the word "Tyrian".

In the event of an encounter with extraplanetary or extradimensional beings, the people who inhabit the planet Tyria would all be considered "Tyrians", however when interacting with people from the same planet, it is fine to divide that into further categories and say if you are from the continent Tyria you are a Tyrian, while if you are from the continent Cantha, you are a Canthan.

It's all about the context.

Think of it this way: If I live in New York City in New York state (which I don't, I live in Pennsylvania, but let's suppose for the sake of argument), I am a New Yorker, both by city and by state; however, someone else who lives in Albany, New York, is still considered a "New Yorker" because they are still from the state of New York. In the scenario of the two of us meeting, because we are both "New Yorkers", we default to the next classification which seperates us--our respective cities--making me the contextual New Yorker in that situation.

Understand? It's all rather confusing, but if you think about it in terms of "levels" of classification and not just the title itself, it makes more sense.|||So Tyria is a continent and the name of the Planet? That's like saying we live in Earth, Earth. :p

God Statues - Not Correct?

Lol...I haven't posted a new thread in so long, I almost feel as if I don't have a right too :P

Anyway, on topic.

I was wondering whether anyone has actually seen the god's statues with all their full adornments in either Tryia (Continent) or Catha. The small peice missing from the Tyrian statues are Balth's Dogs of War, but in Catha, the "unique Cathan flair" to the statues is never actually shown (eg, Grenth is still shown with worshippers clamouring towards his body, whereas the manuscript defines him as having dead piled at his feet looking away from the god.)

If this doesn't belong here, feel free to move it.

Mularc|||This is one thing that puzzled me for awhile as well. It also seems like melandru's lower body is not encased in quartz in Cantha..|||I dont think it is so much of a thing of extreme lore. But I think it is just how each culture saw these gods. Maybe it would be disgraceful in cantha for their dead to be clawing at grenth.|||Quote:








I dont think it is so much of a thing of extreme lore. But I think it is just how each culture saw these gods. Maybe it would be disgraceful in cantha for their dead to be clawing at grenth.




you can say it also otherwhise.

The might off Grenth is a might not to look at.

Or is it that ugly that all turned away from him... |||he's saying teh statues should be different in cantha than in tyria...but that they're not|||Yes, it was actually a question of why the models don't reflect the Lore, or whether I've just got the Lore of them wrong, or of course, if they are there I just haven't seen them.

Mularc|||Mularc, the only parts where you really see Canthan versions of the gods is in the Trailer of Shiro's Betrayal, the murals in the Harvest temple were very interesting.

Besides that you are right, the strategy guide and other things state details that are actually not shown on the usual god statues.|||I once theorized that the statues are mass-produced by one company. If this is true, as Cantha modernized (think Asia around the late 18th century), they adopted these mass-production statues to replace the statues that were removed as Kaineng expanded.|||hmmm...

Quintus, i think they introduced them also to tyria... |||Yes, Tyria is where they'd first have been introduced.

My modern world comparison is the Crucifix of Christ. Even though it is highly inaccurate (He couldn't have hung from the wrists without support, and the Bible says He was beaten beyond recognition), it is still the most adopted form of Catholic and Christian imagery of the Passion. When Christianity was spreading to places like China, they had pictures of an Asian Jesus hanging on a cross, instead of a Arabic Christ, like history suggests. But more or less, the same image has been adopted by Christianity everywhere.

So, it isn't so unlikely that the statues are all the same. Someone wants a statue, so they call up Statues-R-Us says, "Hey, gimme a gold plated Balth" and it's shipped out.

To those who says "nah, that kind of corporation isn't likely in Tyria", consider the Xunlai Agents, and also the fact that the game has a dynamic intertwined in-game economy. I don't think it is too farfetched.

Lyssa's Dominance?

My question to you is this, for whatever reason, if the Goddess herself wanted to, could she overthrow any other given God, or possibly all of them?

Given that a mesmer can counter and defeat any class in a one versus one duel, and their power comes from Lyssa, is it at least plausible to consider she is one of the strongest, if not the strongest God?

Now obviously, as far as we know, Lyssa has no plans to usurp the others Gods thrones, but if she were to attempt it, could she succeed?

One obvious obstacle would be the other Gods sort of teaming up, then I doubt she could bring them all down combined.

What do you think?|||well lyssa is TWO goddess at once so right there shes at an advantage. but mesmers are humble we know we could take power and thats good enough for us. i always thought that lyssa and grenth were good friends cause lyssa makes the bodies for grenth :P|||Well for how i see Lyssa shes not the killer one. Shes like the one that makes ppl notice how wrong they are by doing stuff, like the thing with Scrooge in Christmass.|||One would assume her duality would give her some insight into the natural balance that the five gods provide.|||She is also the goddess of beauty. There isn't much beauty in war.|||Okay okay, it's quite obvious that she wouldn't do it, but my question was could she do it? So, possible motives cast aside...|||Well, if this is just a "What if" question, then it really isn't lore.....|||Could God create a Burrito even He couldn't eat?

It's sort of the same point. Gods would be, one would assume, completely equal in strength. This is why Gods are only ever trapped, stuck, or put in some sort of stasis. Now, whether she is smarter, smart enough to trick every God, I dunno.|||I'm going to move this to the Community Lounge, as it seems to be more of a Guild Wars "What if" discussion, and not really lore.|||Hrm... Grenth is the God of Death, so I can't really see him dying. Dwyana can just probably auto-rez. Melandru has control over nature, so if this battle took place on earth she'd get a bump up (obviously off earth she'd be down a few powers). Balthazar is the God of War which could lead to certain issues in a fight. Remember, in war pretty much everyone gives a prayer to balthazar.

The Size of the Battle Isles

So in keeping with my other two threads, about Tyria and cantha

And using the methods currently under discussion there I have determined the size of the battle isles map. This was definately the easiest one and the most accurate, as it had one less ratio necessary for the calculation. It also provided interesting obstacles, like finding a stretch of land where I wouldn't get a windborne on me and ruin the experiment.

This is the distance over which I ran in 15 seconds.



The ratio between this distance and the horizontal size of the battle isles map is 1:24. The vertical ratio is 1:21. This gives a horizontal:vertical ratio of 1.14:1, which is in keeping with the ratios from the tyrian and canthan maps (1.18 and 1.29).

This gives a running time for the full traversal of the battle isles map of 6 minutes horizontally and 5.25 minutes vertically.

The ratios of the vertical axes between Tyria and the battle isles and the horizontal axes of the same should be equal. They are 1:7.58 and 1:7.33 respectively. The similar case is for battle isles and cantha, where they are 1:5.76 and 1:5.08.

The ratio of the battle isles to Tyria is then roughly 1:7.5|||Didn't we have a discussion in your other thread about using scorpion wire for a more acurate measure? Did you ever do that? :P

The Theory of Resurrection?

Hey guys,

I've looked through the existing general lore, and I haven't found any information as to how the concept of ressurection came about/how it started.

I have some vague, half-formed ideas on the subject, but I wanted to check if there are any existing theories or known reasons that would contradict it. (This is mainly for the purposes of a fan-fic, but I'd like it to be somewhat in keeping with existing GW works)

So the question is: Is there an existing accepted reason for ressurection?

If not, I'll submit mine once i've hammered a few details out |||Hm.. doubt it. Search isn't working for me right now, try it out, maybe you'll get something?|||There is a topic literally four spaces below this one with "Resurrection" right in the title. Did you look at it? It discusses almost all of what you are asking in some form.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=417299|||I must be blind. I apologise, i did look through the forum for anything before I posted, and I can't believe I missed that!

Never mind, feel free to delete this thread, as it's all covered elsewhere|||Well, I'm just going to close the thread so that anyone else with a similar thread can see it and see it was redirected.

However, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a sticky thread called "The Lore Lounge" where you can ask if a thread exists if you are unsure instead of creating a whole new thread that will just get redirected and closed.

Question about GW gods

This has probably been asked before but I couldnt find an awnser.

The gods we now know favor a certain class like:

Balthazar - warrior

Melandru- Ranger

Lyssa - mesmer

Grenth - Necro? or Dervish?

Dwayna - Monk

That leaves the elementalist/ritualist/assassin/Paragon a bit alone. I was wondering if there was any special reason for the absence of these gods.|||Quote:








This has probably been asked before but I couldnt find an awnser.

The gods we now know favor a certain class like:

Balthazar - warrior

Melandru- Ranger

Lyssa - mesmer

Grenth - Necro? or Dervish?

Dwayna - Monk

That leaves the elementalist/ritualist/assassin/Paragon a bit alone. I was wondering if there was any special reason for the absence of these gods.




To be precise, Elementalists take power of the elements from all the gods (Fire=Balthazar Water=Grenth, Etc...)

Dervish worship either One god of choice or all, it is still unclear (see the forms of the gods)

Dervish and paragon also seem to split elemental powers given to Elementalists (see the weapons splitting Elemental damage blades and elemental skills)

Assassins and Ritualists appear to be god-less

Partial and incomplete, but my contribution :p|||To be exact gods also have elements.

Balthazar - warrior and fire

Melandru- Ranger and earth

Lyssa - mesmer

Grenth - Necro and water

Dwayna - Monk and air

So fire ele are favored by Balthazar and Water Ele by Grenth.

Assassins are following Lyssa.

Ritualists are following Grenth. (Spirits being rather dead)

And I don't know for the 2 new classes.

I believe Paragons will follow Balthazar (Fire and warrior like shouts), and the derviche either all the Gods or Grenth (scythe being a death symbol.)|||Assassin: Lyssa and Grenth

Ritualists: Spiritual Ancestors and Grenth

Necromancers: Grenth

Elementists: None, yet all, seeking knowledge and power from all

Warrior: Balthazar

Mesmer: Lyssa

Ranger: Melandru

Monk: Dwayna

Paragon: Unknown. Although highly ritualistic, from what we've seen in the NPE, they never mention the gods. If they follow conventional forms of worship, it is likely they worship Balthazar

Dervish: The dervish worships all gods co-equally, as the description of the class describes.|||You get Paragon buffs from Balthazar and Dwayna, maybe for their "holy-general" way:P|||That's true, they are described as "Guardian Angels" so prehaps, like smiting monks, they worship both Dwanya and Balthazar.|||Ok thanks, didnt now that about the ele.|||Yes, the information on the elementist comes from a ghostly elementist in the Crystal Desert. He says something along the lines of what I and others have said.

Lets Define Lore

When is Lore just fan fiction that is about in game characters rather than role playing?

With a lot of implausible, impossible, and improbable "theories" running around the forum these days, I was wondering if anyone else felt the "lore" part of the "lore" forum slipping away under the weight of guessing.

And where DO we draw the line?|||I agree Nietzsche. Lore is defined as any part of the in-game uni/multiverse that does not violate the fourth wall, is not a necessary game mechanic (ie character creation, UI, etc), and is able to be discussed under the traditional means of scientific exploration. What this means is, just like in the real world, to be considered legitimate lore, a theory must be backed by facts and evidence from the in-game world. It is fine to support these facts with known real world principles as well (physics, biology, etc).

An example of legitimate lore is a discussion on the motivations and culture of the Charr, showing examples from cinemas, dialouge, and screenshots, and cross-referencing this with real world cultures of similar sociostructure.

An example of something that is not lore is saying that Gwen is a Charr, or what I call "wishful thinking". That is, off the wall ideas that have absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. An example of this would be that minotaurs have a world empire (yes someone tried to prove that).

The problem is, so long as someone isn't clearly being ridiculous, we cannot simply dismiss them. A long standing tradition of the LF is to give everyone a chance to explain themselves, and discuss all guesses, hypotheses, and theories in a respectful and scientific fashion.|||What I would like is for people to stop posting their hypothesis or 'theories' as fact.

This, for example:


Quote:




There are Mursaat armors in the Desert.




So, you've researched the forgotten armors, and you've found weak, circumstantial evidence supporting your case. No definitive proof of mursaat presence in the desert, however. And no undismissible proof that mursaat were ever human and wore such armor, etc. Yet, you pose this hypothesis of yours of as solid fact.

Know where to draw the line between conjecture and fact, and don't throw it all around the forums, and don't apply to every single related topic.

P.S. For the love of god quintus, don't try to defend your theories in this thread. I'm trying to make a point, not denounce your ideas.|||I just don't like how people are starting to "create" wild ideas about nightfall, when minimal, and I do mean minimal information is present. I see tonnes of threads and posts talking about the links between things that might not even exist, that's a bit overboard.

Margonites worshippers of Abaddon

So was said from the pre-release box quoted by other people in this forum.

Then the margonites being the ancestors of the Luxons collapses, or not?

And also, could the Kournan's be the descendants of the Margonites then? The "Heretic worshippers of Abaddon"?

Or maybe the reason behind the Luxon's also recognizing other gods and put the old 5 gods lower in position is that they also worship Abaddon secretly?

Or could the Luxons be like the Mursaats, as explained in the Odran Code??

^_^|||Maybe the outcast Luxons worship Abaddon.|||Far more likely that the Margonites split off from the Luxons and then began their worship of Abaddon. Though the Kournans being descendants of Margonites does sound likely.|||Yes, I do not think there is a conflict between the two, as any split in the Margo-Luxon society would have happened well before the dates we are talking about, and the ancestors of the Luxons sailing into the Crystal Desert is established by in-game lore. However, the possibility does exist that these are some other group than the Margonites; I personally find it unlikely as there is no evidence to support another group focusing so heavily on sailing.

That said, the Luxons do worship the Five Gods. The misconception that they don't comes from the Kurzicks.

Map Travel: It's not just for game mechanics any more.

Okay, so I'm sure some people noticed the quest given by the little boy outside the Sunspear Hall in the Nightfall preview, where he talks about map travel. By chance does anyone have the text of his dialogue? I didn't think to record it at the time.

What I find interesting is that this quest has now moved map teleportation from the realm of fourth-wall-transcending game mechanics and made it solidly part of the "real world" lore. As such, we must be able to deduce some sort of explanation as to how it works, and why it works the way it does, i.e, not being able to access cities until they are first entered by physical travel, etc.

When I got that quest, it seemed obvious to me that map travel is linked to the portals at the gates of cities (which are now much more visibly obvious in Nightfall as large disks of energy that distort the views behind them like glass, rather than as nacreous swirling blurs).

When I have time to sit and think through the logical ways this would all work and the ramifications of it, I'll post more, but I figured it would be an interesting topic to bring up for discussion.|||The most easy or quick explanation would be that a basic spell of 'recall' is taught to all childs. Everyone knows that spell.... And people doesn't need a skill slot for it because it's like an 'inherent ability' for them.|||lots of tutorial quests break the fourth wall, this one just happens to be a little further along.|||The concept of map travelling is discussed in the Teleportation Dial thread in the Tyrian Lore Forum.|||Great. That's totally unhelpful however unless a link is included. I see no threads on teleportation dials.|||Watch your attitude, I don't appreciate it.

I did a simple forum search for the phrase "Teleporation Dial" and I found the thread in question:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...portation+dial|||What attitude? It was a simple observation.

Thanks for the link. My searches didn't find that somehow. It seems, though, that the linked thread is more of a discussion on where these dials came from, who Lord Orran was, and how or why he did what he did, rather than the actual mechanics of how map travel works.|||If I remember correctly the child says you mark towns you know of on your map and then when you wish to go there you focus on it and then you teleport to the place you were focusing on.|||Well it's not that bad really

I mean considering that the NPCs in the first Factions mission tells you how to use your keyboard to target enemies and how to use your mouse to draw on the mini-map, that kinda ruins the fantasy feeling.|||Unfortunantely, it's necessary to break the fourth wall from time to time simply because it is a game.

The Guild Wars World Map

This is how I think the world of guild wars currently looks like.|||hmm yea i think thats actually pretty like how i imgined it to be... i wish they wud make it into a big map when u press m and zoom out|||This is great, the maps fit really well together too, so this is definately a good match up.|||Middle piece to the right is Nightfall?

Not to scale though it seems, looks cool though, but Cantha isn't that big compared to Tyria.|||Yes that looks correct.

Hope they will one day make one huge world map when all chapters are out.|||cool :) intresting to see it together|||Quote:




Not to scale though it seems, looks cool though, but Cantha isn't that big compared to Tyria.




Well, Cantha still goes on at the bottom right corner, so for all we know, they may make an addition like Sorrow's Furnace to it, or have Chapter Four really down south.|||Is the map of Elona one you created or something ANet released? I haven't seen it before and I'd love to have a closer look at it. Nice job.|||Yeah, it looks pretty logical. Especially the new Elonian piece seems to fit in, like in a puzzle.|||Quote:








Is the map of Elona one you created or something ANet released? I haven't seen it before and I'd love to have a closer look at it. Nice job.




The map of Elona is an offscreen picture taken by someone during a Anet hosted preview.

http://www.teeteehaa.de/~gc2006live/

Recent archeological findings in the UW

During a Final Exodus [FX] guild run into the UW today, we cleared the ice wastes, the forgotten vale and chaos planess.



It should be known that in the ice wastes, there is a "temple" of Grenth. Unfortunately, I do not have have an old screenshot of this temple to make a "before and after" comparison, hopefully someone will be able to provide one before nightfall was announced. However, I have frequented this place many times and can say with 100% certainty that these findings are recent.

Below is a screenshot of the temple courtyard, which used to be empty and now has pillars.





A close up of one of these pillars reveals writings and runes on its side:



We visited the monuments of grenth at the Labrynth, Forgotten Vale and the Ice Wastes - all were "normal" in the sense that they did not look like this monument found in the Chaos Planes:



Notice the same pillars that now occupy the courtyard of Grenth now surround the Monument of Grenth at the Chaoes places (historically where Dhuum's Tower used to be).

I believe the appearance of these pillars signifies the return of Grenth's predecessor - Dhuum. Hopefully a closer examination of the pillars will unlock more information.

I plan to reenter the Underworld within the next day or tow to attempt to get better pictures of these pillars so we may transcribe the runes and unlock their meaning.|||omg you're right. I was in UW last night and I could've sworn that those pillars WERE NOT THERE before. Something is happening.... I wonder if we'll see things like this in FoW aswell.|||Evil is Rising. Darkness is consuming. Nightfall comes!

(Abbadon will eat your eyes!)

I hope to hear more about this.|||ooooooooo. Maybe we will find out what we do with are bit Tapestry Thread|||Hmmm... Are Dhuum and Abbadon the same or have they joined forces?|||Yeah maybe Gwen was the evil god all along ^^. Nice find though|||here is a picture I took on the 14th of january 2006



and yes before some noob starts yelling at me AA is off

and here is a picture of one of the statues from the 17th of september 2005 (as in not just the other week, but more than a year ago)

|||Spooky... What does this means???|||Quote:








Spooky... What does this means???




what ?|||anyway its pretty obvious OP was mistaken, there is nothing odd its exactly as it was a year ago. Same inscriptions on the pillars and everything. Nothing to post about

The Scroll of Dhuum: Connections between the Lich, Shiro, and the Chaos Army

This is not meant to be a serious lecture, but a plausible connection between several events that span chapters.

We know that Vizier Kilborn, in an attempt to save Orr from the Charr, descended into the depths of the Catacombs of Arah and opened a forbidden scroll, which then caused the Cataclysm, destroying Orr, and creating the Undead Army, as well as corrupting the Vizier and creating the Lich.

For years now, it has been speculated what that scroll contained. Did the Vizier simply speak the incantation wrong? Was it a Titan spirit inside? Did Glint or Gwen somehow corrupt his mind? Was it the T-Virus? Did he get assimiliated by the Borg?!

200 years earlier, during a holy ceremony at the Harvest Temple, Shiro, the Emperor's body guard, struck him down, temporarily gaining massive power and unleashing the Jade Wind when he was defeated by the champions of the Kurzicks and Luxons with the help of Visu.

What exactly happened there? Did Shiro act on his own? Was he manipulated by the Am Fah and fortune teller? Was it a self-fulfilling prophecy? Was he possessed? Did he simply go postal?

Now, with the appearance of the Chaos Army, in both Tyria and Cantha, as well as the Underworld and possibly even Elona, as well as the revelation that the forces behind the events coming in Nightfall also corrupted Shiro, things begin to fall into place.

Eons ago, Dhuum ruled over the Underworld until Grenth "destroyed" him and took over as the God of Death we know now. Yet, the nature of the destruction is largely speculation. Some believe that Dhuum was killed, and is no more. Others believe his position was destroyed or that he was imprisioned somewhere. Those who follow my theory that the Old Gods are like daedra believe that he was greatly reduced in power and imprisioned.

This is an extention on that theory. When Grenth cast out Dhuum, destroying him as the God of Death and reducing his tower to the Chaos Planes, I believe that Dhuum was bodily destroyed, killed persay. Yet, due to Dhuum's nature as a daedraic Old God, like the rest, he was only able to be destroyed so far. His essence was trapped within the scroll of Arah that the Vizier read. When released, the force of Dhuum's chaotic return exploded outward, destroying Orr and posessing the Vizier in the form of a Titan spirit, leading him to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies in an effort to release the Titans. 200 years prior, Dhuum possessed Shiro with similar results. The Harvest Temple explodes and Shiro death wail, filled with all the Chaos of Dhuum, shoots outwards in a radial expansion, turning the Echovald Forest to Amber and the Jade Sea to....well....jade. The result is Shiro's soul is driven mad.

The connection between all these events, both Prophecies and Factions is that they were Dhuum's attempts to regain control. The difference is that at first, he could only silently influence people's minds. He needed the Emperor's conduit with the gods to influence Shiro. However, once the Vizier opened that scroll and read the words or perhaps the name of Dhuum (similar to the dwarven Tome of the Rubicon) and unleashed Dhuum into the realm again. Once Dhuum bodily returned, he was able to regain control of his Chaos Army and corrupt the Underworld once again, pouring out of the Tomb of Primeval Kings and eventually overrunning the Dragon Festival in Cantha.

Now Dhuum is influencing events in Elona in a final effort to finalize his grip.

While Shiro and the Lich both operated with some manner of purpose, they were being driven by forces, perhaps beyond their comprehension.

This theory is not meant to be taken as fact. There is still much we don't know. I have simply presented a plausible way that the events of the three campaigns may be tied together.|||Quote:








His essence was trapped within the scroll of Arah that the Vizier read. When released, the force of Dhuum's chaotic return exploded outward, destroying Orr and posessing the Vizier in the form of a Titan spirit, leading him to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies in an effort to release the Titans.






Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arrah, he spoke the words of a littanly that spelled the end of Orr forever.

One of the lost scrolls. One of multiple lost scrolls, hidden below Arrah. Are you implying that all of these scrolls contain evil gods or somesuch?

These scrolls contained dark magic. Dark is hardly an accurate way of describing the Titans. And why the hell would a titan soul enable one to control the dead anyhow? And why the hell would Dhuum of all people, use titans, the embodiment of destruction, to do his bidding? Dhuum wants to conquer, control, slave, torture, etc. Not simply destroy.

Now, you yourself stated that Grenth never lived in Arrah. Why would a scroll, containing the power of a god Grenth destroyed, be hidden in a vault under a city where he never even lived? The battle between Grenth and Dhuum seems very personal to me, as in, the other gods didn't have anything to do with it, and didn't interfere. Why would they do so later on?


Quote:




The connection between all these events, both Prophecies and Factions is that they were Dhuum's attempts to regain control.




The connection is that Anet's writers are very bad at writing an original story.|||Yes, it was one of many, but why did he choose this one of all of the possible scrolls he could've grabbed? It was probably set aside, maybe even locked up.|||Oddly enough, if anyone has read the PCFormat preview of GW (it's rubbish btw) it states that Nightfall will bring an end to the 'Titans/Shiro' story. Considering the preview was littered with mistakes (including the wrong date for the beta and I'm suspicious about the henchmen orders and plot choices as well) then it's not conclusive evidence of a link but it could be hinting thaT something was involved in both.|||Omg, I've seen this somewhere before...

That's right, in my favorite book series.

Old God (Read: God of Evil), gets cast out, then *eons* later, things start going wrong in the planet the series is set in. Now, about 5 books in, it starts getting really weird. Then at 10 books in, you learn just what the *heck* is going on, and why here of all places, and how every event is all connected. And why? So the Evil God can return!

And, in those books, even the Emperor gets possessed!

Seeing as that was the latest book so far, I have no idea what's coming next. |||Quote:








Now, you yourself stated that Grenth never lived in Arrah. Why would a scroll, containing the power of a god Grenth destroyed, be hidden in a vault under a city where he never even lived?




Here's a thought: What if the scrolls were primarily a record of the events in Cantha that caused the Jade Wind. When the jade wind was unleashed, there was probably a lot of confusion about what just happened. No one who had been there survived. Others investigated and eventually pieced together what had happened. That knowledge gets written down, and eventually finds its way to Orr where it gets locked away.

When the Vizier used one of the scrolls as part of an incantation, it re-triggered Dhuum's attempt to possess Shiro, only this time using the Vizier. Orr gets obliterated, but unlike last time, the Vizier survives to carry out Dhuum's plan. Shiro's soul, which was driven mad already by his encounter with Dhuum, senses the completion of Dhuum's plan. Desperate to avoid falling into Dhuum's control again, he attempts to become mortal hoping this will keep him out of Dhuum's reach. Having been driven mad though, he doesn't care how many people have to die to accomplish this, and doesn't really think through what might happen to him if his plan succeeds.

Just a bit of rampant speculation. |||I don't think Anet has ever said those scrolls contained dark magic. More like, destructive magic. And if the titans are indeed the "embodiment of destruction", then isn't it clear that they can all be attributed to Menzies?

Shiro's death wail can also be seen as a manifestation of destruction. The afflicted and chaos army, on the other hand, seemed to be chaotic.

I stand by my point that Menzies and Dhumm is allied and working together.|||If Dhuum is indeed destroyed, as in, gone forever, then I'd say Menzies is the next best guess. Still, we might all be wrong and it's a god we haven't seen yet. I'm open to that as well.|||I'm all for the gods need believers to be powerful track-of-mind, or at least large groups of people in a an emotional state.

The Charr invasion may have provided this and the Harvest ceremony certainly did. Perhaps whoever this god is channels large quantities of emotion to gain more hold over their domain.

Perhaps Dhuum is merely a turtle at the moment wondering purposefully through a desert waiting to be picked up by an eagle and dropped on a big shindig.

-Art|||Well, both situations we've seen so far - Lich and Shiro - have been cases were extreme circumstances have pushed these people to willingly commit atrocious acts. Despite the fact that there were mitigating circumstances pushing both men toward the brink, both Shiro and the Vizier made the decision of their own accord.

There's another link to this, and this might be shot to heck based on how nightfall goes... In the cases of both Orr and southern Cantha, there was a massive amount of damage/destruction done to the land to the point that it became either uninhabitable or extremely inhospitable.