Dhuum was the god of death and Grenth was the god of ice, Grenth threw Dhuum out of power and took both mantles.
Menzies was the god of fire and Balthazaar was the god of war, Balthazaar threw Menzies out of power and took both mantles, Menzies continues to fight for his throne back.
The Great Dwarf created the Dwarves as an image of himself, he defeats Abbadon and throws him into the realm of torment. Wipes abbadons name from [most] records and is never seen agin.
Abbadon is thrown into the realm of torment by the Great Dwarf.
Lyss (Lyssa's stubborn twin sister) creates the reckless humans as an image of herself and as a punisment is fused into Lyssa.
Lyssa is fused with Lyss, the reason why she has 2 heads.
So after all this, there are 5 gods left, when there was originaly 10. This shows that the "gods" are as much godly as the greek gods were godly.
What happened to Kormir and Abbadon is like what happened to Lyssa+Lyss, only that Kormir was a mortal. Just like how Lyssa is 2 gods at once, "two different sides of the same coin", Kormir is both Abbadon and herself. Kormir is Abbadon, but yet she is not. Its hard to understand, like how Jesus and God are one in the same.
Now Gods cant die, and the closest thing to death is that they are reduced to energy and become part of another god. This may be one of the reasons why Balth+Grenth dont want Dhuum+Menzies to be defeated. They both stole mantles from them, if another God took their place, they would lose the mantle.
This creates a neverending loop, where if a god is defeated, he is "reincarnated" in a sense, only they are still somewhat of the same person. I wouldn't be suprised if the 5 remaining gods refer to Kormir as Abbadon.
Anyway, the only thing that makes sense in the 5 gods re-accepting kormiradon is that they never cared much about him anyway. He was like their naughty little brother, who got in trouble and was sent to the corner (RoT).
So the end of all this ramble is that yes, in a sense the Titans are demi-gods, but the title of "god" doesnt mean much, for the gods are forever changing. They are still demi-gods as they work for a current God. As Abbadon's reincarnation (kormir) continues her reign, I doubt that she will use the titans, which will reduce them to mere things, instead of Demi gods.|||Quote:
So the end of all this ramble is that yes, in a sense the Titans are demi-gods, but the title of "god" doesnt mean much, for the gods are forever changing. They are still demi-gods as they work for a current God. As Abbadon's reincarnation (kormir) continues her reign, I doubt that she will use the titans, which will reduce them to mere things, instead of Demi gods.
Interesting lore on the 10 into 5 gods there. Thanks for posting that.
As for demigods - I'm not sure that simply serving a god qualifies one for demigodhood. The archetypal demigod (Herakles) gets his status from having a god for a father and a mortal for a mother. In general, it means someone who has a mortal for one parent and a god for the other.
That's not to say the titans couldn't be demigods, just saying that the definition you're using is more applicable to angels (or demons) than demigods.|||Quote:
Interesting lore on the 10 into 5 gods there. Thanks for posting that.
As for demigods - I'm not sure that simply serving a god qualifies one for demigodhood. The archetypal demigod (Herakles) gets his status from having a god for a father and a mortal for a mother. In general, it means someone who has a mortal for one parent and a god for the other.
That's not to say the titans couldn't be demigods, just saying that the definition you're using is more applicable to angels (or demons) than demigods.
Sorry for my mis-defining of Demigod.
I accually find it quite interesting about Herekles (Hercules, both are right) being a Demi-God. This must mean that Menzies is also a Demi-God, though he once did the same job as a true god. In the Hidden City mission, Balthazaar refers to Menzies as his "Half Brother." Kormir states early in the game that all the current gods were siblings. I wonder now about the orgin of Menzies, and what his other half is.
For Citation of the 10 gods post, The Lyssa+Lyss was from the GW Special Edition manuel, and a quest in Vabbi (Vabbians state that Lyssa created the humans in her image). The Dhuum+Grenth is from ingame, The great dwarf is from the dwarf of the ring of fire (states that he made the dwarves) and some Guild Wiki article stating that he helped lock up abadon and was never seen since. The Menzies+Balthazaar is from FoW.|||The Great Dwarf is Balthazar. I have clearly shown this in my article on Dwarven Theology. I would also say Menzies is a demigod, as he is only the half-brother of Balthazar, meaning somewhere, he has a different father or mother. Also, there may be more than "10" Old Gods (I'd say the actually figure from your data should be 8, not 10 for the reasons above) because someone had to sire and mater the current generation of gods. Whether or not these beings were gods or mortals is unknown however.
And a side request, I've never heard of the whole Lyssa+Lyss being bonded/creating the humans thing. Can you post and image/text/name of quest of the quest you cite and a scan or link to a digital manual of the GWSE Manuscripts?|||Yeah I would also like to see the source of the whole Lyssa/Lyss thing. Especially as Lyss is mostly used in GW as a reference directly to lyssa. Also because everything I can find about the GWSE manuscripts indicate that they are idential to all other GW: Prophecies manuscripts differing only at the level that the US and European manuscripts differ semantically about Odran.
For example : the Day of Lyss is a holiday celebratign lyssa. The mirror of Lyss is a temple dedicated to Lyssa.
As for Lyssa creating the vabbians in her image, that doesn't mean she created all of Humanity. In fact it sort of implies that she didn't if the "lore suggests" that she only made the vabbians in her image, as taken from the Tihark Orchard mission.|||The Vabbians worship (for lack of a better term) wealth and beauty. Lyssa is the patroness of these things. That's why the Vabbians say that Vabbi was created by Lyssa.|||The theories of Lyssa are mere theories, but can be backed up by countless sources. Since there seems to be an interest, I'll continue to talk about her and list all sources.
The only thing I took from the manuel was the beginning clause, "The twin goddesses of Lyssa." though this could be a mere metaphor, I doubt it. The reason is that the picture of Lyssa shows 2 human looking girls fused at the waist/stomach. Even the statue in ToA shows that image, only that the legs are covered in a whirlwind like vortex, but it still shows two girls winding together to form one. Throughout the chapters Lyssa is refered to as both Lyssa and Lyss, though mostely Lyssa. Hmm if someone is named Lauren, I wouldnt randomly call her Laura. They are two different names.
That is why I believe that the name of the other girl who is inside Lyssa is Lyss. When refered to as simply a god, they use Lyssa (example, "Lyssa be damned, I didnt see that one coming!" said by Danika in GWF)
And they aren't like merged twins that you see on the news. Lyssa has a full body, but another girl is unnaturally inside her sideways. She appears to have not even a hint of legs. The woman who makes up 75% of the body is Lyssa, and the other 25% of that half girl is what remains of Lyss, which might not even be a consious soul.
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The Vabbians worship (for lack of a better term) wealth and beauty. Lyssa is the patroness of these things. That's why the Vabbians say that Vabbi was created by Lyssa.
This would be a valid point. However, they did not say that Lyssa created Vabbi, they said that Lyssa created the Vabbians. The Vabbians as a people, not a country. A mere metaphore? Once again, I doubt it. There is reason to believe that Vabbi was where the humans were created.
This is my reason. The crystal desert is what connects Tyria and Elona. The crystal desert was not a desert until the Gods left the earth and turned it into a wasteland. The humans couldn't have originated in Tyria because Istan was one of the first empires. The humans couldn't have originated in Istan because it is filled with ancient relics of Abaddon, obviously Abbadon's turf. That leaves Kourna and Vabbi. And the Vabbians happen to say that Lyssa created them in her image.
Now we go onto that point. Most humans don't have another person sprouting out of their chests, do they. If Lyssa didn't have a woman sprouting out of her, she would look exactly like a human. Lets look at the other gods. Dwayna has wings. Bathazaar is a dwarf (I just learned this). Abaddon has six eyes. Melandru is half tree, half human. Grenth wasnt one of the "true" Gods until he rid of Dhuum, and his fingers form insect-like claws. All this leaves is Lyssa, who happenes to be a human with a girl inside her.
I will use this same reasoning to convince you now that Lyssa+Lyss were once two people. It is said that the Vabbians (the people, not the province) were created in Lyssa's image. Does every Vabbian have two heads? No. This means that the only possible way that this could be true is if Lyssa didn't always have a girl shooting out of her side. Lyssa+Lyss were once two people.
So why did Lyssa+Lyss merge? Well the only thing that she/they seemed to do was create the humans. And wait, lets find out what the result of that was.
1. The humans expand outside of their territory, warring with other species, and driving them out.
2. Humans destroy nature more than any other race
3. Humans enslave other species
4. Humans use magic to wreak havic apon the world.
Hmm, If I was a god I'd be pretty pissed off at the fact that Lyssa/Lyss created a race that is destroying all our hard work.
If Lyssa/Lyss did indeed create the humans, it would be her fault that this happened to the world, and if something is your fault you get punished.
Hmm now what seems to be a good punishment. How about throwing your body into your sisters, making you less of a soul. That sounds like a good punishment to me.
Now which one of the twins created the humans? It was most likely Lyss. This is because after the two were fused together, The name Lyssa remained. Lyss is still sometimes used, but not as much as Lyssa. Lyss is as good as dead, if Lyssa has control over what remains of her body.
So let's sum up the facts.
1) Lyssa is refered to as the "Twin Gods of Lyssa"
2) Lyssa has a full body and a half body sprouting out of her side
3) If the humans were created in Lyssa's image, she must not have had that body in her when she did it
4) The humans wreaked havoc onto the world. It goes to the point that the gods leave the world. They must've been pretty pissed off
5) Making Lyssa+Lyss one in the same seems to be a good form of punishment, doesnt it?
And for those who will say it, in RoT, the gods say that the humans were created with the same amount of potential knowledge as the gods. They do not say that they all created them together.
I hope this has helped convince you in my belief that Lyssa was once two people. What Anet says about Lyssa is vague, and I wouldnt be suprised if this was one of the subjects of a later chapter.
EDIT: AHA! Arenanet referes to Lyssa as two people at this part of their site. http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/ty...theoldgods.php|||I think your theory is impressive. I'd recommend writing up a whole paper on it so we can discuss it in it's own thread.
However, I'm not too happy that you said you were quoting a source, when in reality, you weren't. In the future, please tell us exactly what you are quoting so there is no questioning it.
The one flaw I potentially see is that Vabbi didn't exist until after the time of the Shattered Dynasty. Also, humans appeared on Tyria first in Cantha. I'd still like to know which quest you are refering to, if it's not to much of a problem.|||Quote:
I think your theory is impressive. I'd recommend writing up a whole paper on it so we can discuss it in it's own thread.
However, I'm not too happy that you said you were quoting a source, when in reality, you weren't. In the future, please tell us exactly what you are quoting so there is no questioning it.
The one flaw I potentially see is that Vabbi didn't exist until after the time of the Shattered Dynasty. Also, humans appeared on Tyria first in Cantha. I'd still like to know which quest you are refering to, if it's not to much of a problem.
I realised that I did not quote the source the twin goddess part, and now I will list you my source. In all honesty I was so caught up in my theory that I forgot to list the sources I found, and I will give them to you now.
http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/ty...theoldgods.php
it is the same article in my manuel, search under Lyssa. Sorry for that.
[Lyssa
The twin goddesses of beauty and illusion, Lyssa is the patron god of the Mesmer profession. Many a spellcaster has fallen under the charms of these two, making it easy for them to choose to specialize in the mesmeric arts. Lyssa is usually portrayed in her natural state�a pair of twin, intertwined goddesses, back to back, no illusions or glamours involved. There are stories of young men stopping to gaze longingly at statues of the beautiful goddesses, only to forget themselves and die of thirst while simply looking on.
Notice how they refer to Lyssa as two people. Look at that article on the link I gave you and you will see that there is more to this theory than simple speculation. This is the exact article in my manuel.
The discussions of Lyssa take place in many different parts of the Vabbian part of the story. Tihark Orchard (sp) speaks of this many times as the whole mission is based around a festival dedicated to Lyssa. This is also discussed somewhat in the Mirror of Lyss and the quest leading to Tihark Orchard.
The Elonian timeline doesnt exactly say that Vabbi didnt exist until then, only that it was the time that the evil primeval kings reached it. It existed before then because he would have no civilization to conquer if there was nothing there
source: http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/elona/timeline.php
Istan couldn't have been the first empire, because they wouldn't need to "conquer" anything. Vabbi is also around the center of both continents and it will be easy to understand how they got to Tyria if they simply explored in all different directions. Source is in the link above.
Also notice that the Mirror of Lyss is Lyss not Lyssa, if Vabbi was indeed the first civilization, than it would be understandable why it said Lyss not Lyssa, for that it was created when Lyss was not yet fused into Lyssa.
Source: just look at Vabbi, you see the Mirror of Lyss as an area.|||Now that's what I'm talking about =P Good citations.
Would you mind if I split these last series of responses into their own thread? This is an interesting topic which I believe warrants it's own thread for discussion.
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