These tentacles are very reminiscent of those that slithered up wherever the "wall" between Tyria and the Mists is "thin" as Nightfall approached. This included in the Desolation, near the Mouth of Torment, and in the Crystal Desert, at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, both known access points to other parts of the Mists beyond Tyria.
The fact that these torment tentacles had begun to creep into Tyrian reality so early, earlier, in fact, according to the in-game chronology, than any other known tentacles in the game, leads me to strongly suspect that another portal to the Mists may lie beneath Fahranur.
This in and of itself is fascinating, but couple the presence of a portal with Fahranur's historical prominence as "the First City," and a bit of extra support is lent to a very fascinating theory which has been suggested on these fora before.
All of the human manuscripts are extremely vague on the early history of humanity on Tyria. This vagueness is despite the fact that human history seems to have begun only nineteen hundred years ago, at the earliest, in Cantha, and that since that time there's been a single, mostly stable, government in Cantha, presumably collecting and preserving historical records.
The Prophecies and Nightfall Manuscripts state only that humanity suddenly "appeared" in Tyria and Elona twelve hundred years ago. Unlike the dwarves, human histories make no mention of where they came from or if they were created by any of the gods. Humans didn't even seem to be aware of the Tyrian "True Gods" for almost ninety years until Dwayna made her presence known to a Tyrian in 115 BE. This time of ignorance of the True Gods would seem to have lasted at least six-hundred seventy years in Cantha, if not much longer, depending on how quickly word spread from Tyria.
Within five years of their first appearance on Istan, however, the Elonians had already established a centralized kingdom that stretched from western Istan to the coast of Kourna.
The Prophecies manuscripts state that humanity was able to conquer almost all the known world, presumably referring to continental Tyria, in the two hundred years between their "appearance" and the Great War of Magic that nearly exterminated humanity in the year before the Exodus.
Seemingly, this was not a primitive race of hunter-gatherers at first. There didn't seem to be any great growing pains or acclimation period for humans between arriving in the world and suddenly beginning to dominate and rule over its other sentient species. They didn't have to discover fire or learn how to sharpen sticks into spears, they came already prepared for conquest.
For these reasons, it has been suggested that humanity is not a species native to Tyria, but rather is a race that walked the Mists and came to Tyria, either on their own or, possibly but unlikely, at the behest of the True Gods, as conquerors and colonizers.
I suggest that Fahranur's portal is where the Elonian branch of humanity first arrived on Tyria. As soon as the first humans arrived on the Istani coast in 1205, they likely established a small fortification to guard the portal back to the Mists or their true homeworld, as well as to guard whatever supplies they brought with them to colonize this new world they had found. As more colonists arrived or the first wave of settlers grew through natural causes, the fortification grew larger and larger until the great city of Fahranur lay on top of the portal.
I would also suggest similar points of arrival for the Tyrian and Canthan branches of humanity. As many things hint that the first Ascalons came from the north, perhaps the Tyrian portal is related to the truly ancient structure of the Eye of the North, which certainly is imbued with tremendous magical power through its scrying pool.
Similarly, perhaps the earliest human branch arrived in Cantha from the portal in the Battle Isles, and they then spread to Shing Jea and the mainland, or perhaps there is just another lost portal on Shing Jea or buried somewhere beneath Kaineng. The appearances of the grasps and torment rifts all over Shing Jea during the Dragon Festival a couple of years ago suggest that the "wall of the Mists" may be very thin all over Shing Jea and perhaps this is why Canthans were some of the first humans to arrive on Tyria.
For all these reasons, I suggest that there is a portal to the Rift beneath Fahranur, the First City, that it was the original point of arrival for the Elonian humans. I also suggest that this lends support for the idea that all of humanity is not native to Tyria, but that we came as conquerors and colonizers from some other world beyond the Mists.|||I see only one issue with this idea. In the Manuscripts it states that: "They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control." This, of course, referring to the humans and this would seem to indicate one thing, the humans of Tyria arrived in this way. Which seems the likeliest case as there isn't a "creation" story from any of the other continents so we don't know if they came about in the same way or not.|||For Fahranur being called "The First City," that is only because it was the first city on Istani, not where the people who appeared on Istan came from (note that the timeline says that humans appeared "on the island of Istan and the valleys of Elona,"*which was 205 BE not 1205) meaning that they appeared on Isani and kourna/vabbi at the same time). Also, as for why there are tendrils (I dislike using the word tentacles, too easy to misread) in Fahranur, I would say that was caused by the Apocrypha, not a portal.
As for why there was no period for humans to be hunters and gatherers, it never says that there wasn't such a period. On Istan, there are no major races to impede human production, same with some of Cantha. Only Tyria, Kourna, maybe Vabbi, and maybe certain parts of Cantha had other races to impede human involvment.
In Tyria, there are the Charr (which were beaten to the north via help of the gods), and Tengu in Kryta. As Orr is gone, there is no known sentient race that lived there before humans. In Elona, there are Centaurs in Kourna, and the only threat in Vabbi would be Harpies, Hekets, and Elementals (mainly Djinn). For Cantha, there are Tengu. Other then those races mentioned, the only real threat were the average come about monsters.
Also, as for the "humans didn't know of the Gods" theory, I'd have to disagree because as soon as humans were in Tyria, they knew of the Gods(which is only 581 years, not 670), and there is no proof that those on Cantha did not know of the Gods, but unless one of the "Heroes of Cantha" stories mention a god and date, it is not an invalid argument for Cantha not knowing of the Gods until those in Tyria did.|||Quote:
which was 205 BE not 1205
Sorry, that was a bad typo on my part. I was thinking "1200 years ago," in my head, and that error slipped past me.
Quote:
meaning that they appeared on Isani and kourna/vabbi at the same time
The timeline actually leaves the settlement of Vabbi very unclear. It mentions that humans settled in the "valley of Elona," presumably in the delta and along the banks of the lower Elon, in 205 BE, but says that the Primeval Kings didn't spread their rule into Vabbi until 29 AE, two-hundred thirty-four years later. This might mean that they just didn't conquer the independent peoples living in Vabbi until then or it might mean that humans hadn't settled in Vabbi at all until that time.
The key point is that in 200 BE, just five years after any humans appeared anywhere in Elona, the Primeval Dynasty was already conquering Istan and, presumably, Kourna. Conquest of a swath of territory that vast is not the sort of thing that a small group of simple berry-gatherers could accomplish in the face of skale and heket tribes, groups of djinn, and, most of all, the Forgotten Empire each staking their own, older claims to these territories. The people who appeared in Elona in 205 BE were already prepared to fight a war of conquest.
Quote:
Also, as for why there are tendrils (I dislike using the word tentacles, too easy to misread) in Fahranur, I would say that was caused by the Apocrypha, not a portal.
This is a possibility, but there are no other examples, that I'm aware of, of particular creatures causing tentacles (or tendrils, however I think tendrils, although a better word, makes them sound too delicate) to appear, while we do have specific evidence from the Tomb of the Primeval Kings that a portal can cause tentacles to appear, and very early on too, just as they did at Fahranur.
Quote:
On Istan, there are no major races to impede human production, same with some of Cantha. Only Tyria, Kourna, maybe Vabbi, and maybe certain parts of Cantha had other races to impede human involvment.
I disagree strongly with this. There is no part of the world that we've been to which hasn't exhibited a huge number of aggressive beasts and monsters, much more aggressive than most animals here on Earth, which could easily have driven humanity to extinction on Tyria if they truly arrived as defenseless as a human hunter-gatherer society would be. That's not even counting the sentient and semi-sentient species everywhere as well.
On Istan, even the skale are sentient and organized enough to have a simple theology, social organization, and the ability to assemble armies to fight religious wars against humans intruding on what they see as their territory.
The harpies are quite obviously sentient, territorial and powerful enough to be able to support a simplistic material culture on their own. There is absolutely no part of Tyria which would be friendly to a truly defenseless hunter-gatherer society, let alone which could give them enough space to expand as rapidly as the manuscripts describe humanity as doing.
Furthermore, if human history from the real world is any example, it would have taken tens of thousands of years for humans to develop an urban, agricultural, developed material culture like the one we see in-game, and that's only if they faced no other sentient, territorial threats from their environment. Supposedly, the Elonians would have had to do it all in five years while fighting for their lives at the same time.
The competitive pressure would have just been too great on Tyria for humans to develop from a nomadic, hunter-gather stage of culture to a settled, urban, expansive stage as quickly as the manuscripts make it apparent that they did. Humans first developed the foundations of the culture that they have on Tyria today, somewhere else.
Quote:
as soon as humans were in Tyria, they knew of the Gods
I don't know of any evidence to support that. The first record we have of any god speaking to a human is Dwayna speaking to Doric in 115 BE, and in it, she seems to be introducing herself as though for the first time and laying out the groundwork for their worship of her. She wouldn't have to had to do this if the cult of Dwayna, or any of the other True Gods, had been known beforehand.
Furthermore, both Elona and Cantha employ the same scriptures of the True Gods as Tyria. The stories for the other gods' first adherents might come from elsewhere, but all signs point to Dwayna's first adherent, the first of any human to any known god, being Doric of Ascalon. Since Canthans and Elonians use the same scriptures as Tyrians, it seems likely that the cult of Dwayna first began in Tyria and spread from there.
Quote:
which is only 581 years, not 670
I'm afraid I'm not sure what the number 581 references, but 671 is the number of years between the first appearance of humans in Cantha in 786 BE, and Dwayna's apparition before Doric in 115 BE. One has to give, at the absolute least, a few months for Tyrian missionaries to cross the seas for the story to even reach Cantha (although I suspect it would actually have taken generations, maybe a couple of centuries), and it ends up being at least 670 years between the appearance of the first Canthans and when the knowledge of the True Gods first comes to humans.|||Quote:
This is a possibility, but there are no other examples, that I'm aware of, of particular creatures causing tentacles (or tendrils, however I think tendrils, although a better word, makes them sound too delicate) to appear, while we do have specific evidence from the Tomb of the Primeval Kings that a portal can cause tentacles to appear, and very early on too, just as they did at Fahranur.
The tendrils appear via Abaddon's influence. The reason why they show in Tombs of the Primeval kings is not because of the portal, but because of Abaddon's corruption in the portal. Remember, before Factions, the town had no tendrils at all. The Apocrypha was a "messanger of Abaddon" and therefore brought Abaddon's influence into the city.
Quote:
I disagree strongly with this. There is no part of the world that we've been to which hasn't exhibited a huge number of aggressive beasts and monsters, much more aggressive than most animals here on Earth, which could easily have driven humanity to extinction on Tyria if they truly arrived as defenseless as a human hunter-gatherer society would be. That's not even counting the sentient and semi-sentient species everywhere as well.
There are aggressive creatures, but not organized, per se, enough to prevent humans from spreading. You hardly ever see "random monsters" organized in such a fashion that they can stop a group of 8, or more, fighting humans.
Quote:
On Istan, even the skale are sentient and organized enough to have a simple theology, social organization, and the ability to assemble armies to fight religious wars against humans intruding on what they see as their territory.
... religious wars? armies of skales? May I ask what your proof is?
Quote:
The harpies are quite obviously sentient, territorial and powerful enough to be able to support a simplistic material culture on their own. There is absolutely no part of Tyria which would be friendly to a truly defenseless hunter-gatherer society, let alone which could give them enough space to expand as rapidly as the manuscripts describe humanity as doing.
Friendly to a truly defenseless group, only the kind sentient beings (remember, humans and centaurs did get along at first, according to Ventari). Harpies themselves are only truly dominant in Vabbi, those in Istan are hardly a threat to your basic human (fighters seem to be lvl 10 in most places, civilians at lvl 5, and heroes at lvl 20 - of course, that is more game mechanics then lore, it also reflects how heroes are above others, especially civilians).
Quote:
Furthermore, if human history from the real world is any example, it would have taken tens of thousands of years for humans to develop an urban, agricultural, developed material culture like the one we see in-game, and that's only if they faced no other sentient, territorial threats from their environment. Supposedly, the Elonians would have had to do it all in five years while fighting for their lives at the same time.
The competitive pressure would have just been too great on Tyria for humans to develop from a nomadic, hunter-gather stage of culture to a settled, urban, expansive stage as quickly as the manuscripts make it apparent that they did. Humans first developed the foundations of the culture that they have on Tyria today, somewhere else.
My guess is that humans obviously had help in creating their culture. As I said, Centaurs are known to have once been in good relations to Humans, and we know Dwarves have been for a long time, and it is possible that before Humans started to expand into Tengu territory, that they were somewhat friendly as well. Not to mention that there were the Forgotten, Mursaat, and Seers around as well. So humans could have learned from pre-existing races, in the real world, we had no one to learn from. Being able to learn from other races could have pushed Humanity up a few several centuries. Seeing how the only known threat from a sentient race were the Charr back then, there might have been help given from other sentient races to help Humans "start on the right track."
Quote:
I don't know of any evidence to support that. The first record we have of any god speaking to a human is Dwayna speaking to Doric in 115 BE, and in it, she seems to be introducing herself as though for the first time and laying out the groundwork for their worship of her. She wouldn't have to had to do this if the cult of Dwayna, or any of the other True Gods, had been known beforehand.
Furthermore, both Elona and Cantha employ the same scriptures of the True Gods as Tyria. The stories for the other gods' first adherents might come from elsewhere, but all signs point to Dwayna's first adherent, the first of any human to any known god, being Doric of Ascalon. Since Canthans and Elonians use the same scriptures as Tyrians, it seems likely that the cult of Dwayna first began in Tyria and spread from there.
My source:
Quote:
Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by the beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history. The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before seen. This upstart race spread like a plague across the continent, and the Charr soon faced the first true challenge to their dominance-the threat of humanity.
The bolded part is the proof to the humans knowing of the gods since they showed up. Seeing how the first (or second, as we don't know the founding date of Orr) human settlement was in the Charr homelands, then the humans must have known of the gods before this. As for the Humans in Elona and Cantha knowing after the ones in Tyria, I don't disagree. I was just stating that according to the Ecology of the Charr, unless I'm mistaken by the date, speak of humans worshiping the gods before the date of Dwayna's Scripture.
Quote:
I'm afraid I'm not sure what the number 581 references, but 671 is the number of years between the first appearance of humans in Cantha in 786 BE, and Dwayna's apparition before Doric in 115 BE. One has to give, at the absolute least, a few months for Tyrian missionaries to cross the seas for the story to even reach Cantha (although I suspect it would actually have taken generations, maybe a couple of centuries), and it ends up being at least 670 years between the appearance of the first Canthans and when the knowledge of the True Gods first comes to humans.
the number 581 references the years between humans arriving in Tyria/Elona and appearance in Cantha. With the time it should have took to spread the word of the gods, it would be more around 600 years between appearing in Cantha and knowing of the Gods. That is, from my source, and, of course, that is initial spreading, not widespread belief in them, although with the Gods helping push back the charr and giving magic to the humans, I would guess the belief would be spread fast, seeing how the Gods were even living among the humans at the time.|||makes me thing that if joko was a human WAYYYYYYY back but never got mentioned maybe he was one of those early settlers and something happened to him|||I've got a couple of points (not directly to the OP, just throwing them into the discussion):
1. Cantan Colonies?
Even though there is no proof if, most people think that the Canthans (being the first Humans) colonized Tyria and founded the Three Nations. So, since Cantha has been under a central government since it's existence as a nation, a Canthan Emperor was probably the one giving the orders to establish colonies on the mainland of Tyria.
As we can see in the Timeline though:
Quote:
100BE: High-planes human settlements become known as Ascalon & Ascalon's new king recieves first Canthan ambassador.
The Ascalon King receiving a Canthan ambassador indicates that Ascalon couldn't have been a colony of Cantha. Of course Orr still stands as a possible Canthan Colony, but if it once was one, why did the Canthan Emperor let it become an independent nation? Kryta, on the other hand, is mentioned to have been a colony of Cantha. If so, why doesn't the Timeline mention Orr and Ascalon being found as colonies too? Same goes up for Istan/Kourna.
2. The Battle Isles
Quote:
Similarly, perhaps the earliest human branch arrived in Cantha from the portal in the Battle Isles, and they then spread to Shing Jea and the mainland, or perhaps there is just another lost portal on Shing Jea or buried somewhere beneath Kaineng. The appearances of the grasps and torment rifts all over Shing Jea during the Dragon Festival a couple of years ago suggest that the "wall of the Mists" may be very thin all over Shing Jea and perhaps this is why Canthans were some of the first humans to arrive on Tyria.
If the Canthans originated of The Battle Isles, than why weren't there any other Humans on the Battle Isles when Zaishens arrived there some time later. Why aren't there any ruins of ancient human civilizations if the humans ever lived there before?
Shing Jea can't be it either, since the Timeline clearly states:
Quote:
786BE: Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent. Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.
Northern coastline is (obviously) not the same as Shing Jea Island.|||Quote:
Kryta, on the other hand, is mentioned to have been a colony of Cantha.
Source? I remember reading that Kryta was a colony of Ascalon before becoming independent. Of course, I can't seem to find where I read that, but I defiantly never read Kryta being a colony of Cantha, only relationship I know of them is that they are trading partners.
And of course, I always took Orr as being a colony of Ascalon as well when I started playing, before it became independent. (but that is only because I focused on Tyrian lore back then, and thought Ascalon was the first place on that continent, but it never says when Orr was founded so it's hard to tell with that.)
As for why Ascalon wasn't mentioned to be a colony of Cantha, I would say that they could have been people who split off from Cantha, that is, if Cantha is where Tyrians and Elonans come from. As for Orr, nothing other then that Arah was the city of the Gods is mentioned about their past really. Pre-Exodus at least.|||The timeline only mentions Orr becoming an independent nation, not when it was founded or who it became independent from.
The timeline states that in 221AE "Cantha starts trade relations with Tyria, Elona, and even lands further north." It's possible that the humans who arrived on Tyria and Elona in 205BE came from Cantha as willing colonists, but in that case, wouldn't there have already been trade between them?
On the other hand, it's possible that the Tyrians and Elonians were Canthans dissatisfied with their home nation who fled Cantha in order to found their own nations elsewhere (a more extremist version of the Kurzicks and Luxons, perhaps). If these initial settlers were disaffected expatriates, they wouldn't have wanted contact with Cantha, and Cantha might not have wanted contact with them (at least initially). After a few hundred years had passed, the residual animosity might have settled down enough that the advantages of trade with other continents would outweigh any hard feelings.
The third possibility, of course, is that Tyrians and Elonians never came from Cantha, and trade relations with Cantha only started when the continents discovered each other.|||IIRC, it was Kryta who was a colony of Ascalon, with King Thorn (An Ascalonian), being one of Kryta's kings.
No comments:
Post a Comment