First, there are three stages of "Life," which is how the first part of this topic is split up. Each stage deals with a different type of body or location. The stages, as I have named them, are �Mortal Life,� �Ghostly Life,� and �Afterworld Life.�
Stage 1: Mortal Life
This stage is the life of corporeal beings, with physical bodies. Basically, it is the original life of creatures.
How I view this stage of life is that there is a physical body that traps (for lack of a better word) the soul and keeps it in the physical world. While it traps the soul, it also protects the soul, preventing any damage to it. The reason why I say "trap" is because the soul cannot freely leave the physical body, not like many would want it to.
As evidence by Shiro, it is possible to return to this stage, through use of powerful magic, or more possibly through the help of a god. Because Shiro was able to return to his mortal body, something I now wonder is "Will we meet others who will return from the 'Ghostly Life' to the 'Mortal Life?'"
That is, other then the Undead, which are souls who were forced into inanimate bodies, unlike Shiro, who took on flesh and bone from his spirit form. But Undeath is for a later discussion.
Stage 2: Ghostly Life
In this stage, souls wonder the world, waiting to be taken to their afterlife destination (usually the Underworld, sometimes other realm of the gods). It is this stage that all of the spirits in the world are in (i.e. the spirits in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, etc.).
This stage can also be considered the stage for "Spirits who cannot find rest," as this is the same idea. Spirits here are simply waiting to move on, or unable to move on due to some regret or mistake regarding their "Mortal Life." For instance, the spirits in the Crystal Desert and the Desolation are unable to move on due to one of two things: First, wanting to finish the journey/be reunited with their loved ones. Second, wishing to see Turai Ossa go through Ascention (which is implied to happen when the heroes Ascend, by Turai�s dialogue in Amnoon Oasis).
When under the order of the gods, it seems that spirits are allowed to travel between this stage and the next stage freely. This is most evident by the Avatar of the gods (most of which look like spirits, Lyssa being the exception) � who grant special people access to their god�s realm and in some cases guide a spirit themselves � and the Envoys (as they are the spirits of past criminals) � who have to shepherd the dead.
Stage 3: Afterworld Life
First, I will start off by saying that there seems to be two ways into this stage. The first being obvious, an Envoy takes the spirit to the Underworld � or a spirit is taken by an Avatar to the respective Realm. The second is that when a ghost is killed, it is sent to the Rift.
The evidence I have for this is the quest Refuse the King, mainly the reward dialogue:
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"Perhaps there is some good left in this world, for you turned down Jahnus at great risk to your life. That vile beast deserves whatever awaits him in the depths of the Underworld. I only wish it could have been I who cast down his spirit. The dead are grateful, my friend, and hope you will accept this token."
Seeing how those who take this quest has to kill the spirit of King Jahnus, and his spirit is sent to the Underworld, then that means that killing a spirit that is in the "Ghostly Stage" just sends it to the next life.
The biggest mystery in all of this is what happens to the spirit if it is killed in the Rift. Vizier Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi are perfect examples for this. After the heroes killed them in the Gate of Madness, as they were spirits, what happens to them?
Well, as it seems, what happens to the spirit depends on how the spirit �died.�
Outcome 1:
When a spirit is killed in the Rift, it disappears forever. This currently has little to no support, and is just a common belief of what happens to a spirit. The most common background for this belief would be an �exorcism.� If this outcome ever happens, it would be a rare outcome and would only happen in unusual times (as this happening a lot would throw the universe out of balance � see below for why).
Outcome 2:
The final possibility, would be when the spirit dies in the Rift, the "spirit energy," as one can call it, is sent back to the Mist. This would be the case for most of the deaths of spirits, as the Mist cannot create something out of nothing (despite it being �just a game� as many who are not interested in lore would say, even the universe of Guild Wars must rely on physics most of the time), and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Because energy cannot be created or destroyed, a soul cannot be created out of nothing, and therefore the Mists must gain something or else all new life will eventually stop. The best source of this �something� would be the energy from spirits when they get killed.
Outcome 3:
The final outcome is to be eaten by a demon, or something demonic, such as a Margonite. Along with what happens to a spirit when they die normally, we do not know what actually happens to a spirit when they are eaten.
According to the quests Vanishing Spirits, A Tasty Morsel, and The Growing Threat, it is known that Margonites and Torment Demons eat spirits as food.
What I see as the most likely thing to happen would be the same as the above Outcome 1, the complete destruction of the soul. However, the difference between here and Outcome 1 is that, while Outcome 1 has no export for the energy of the soul, being eaten does have an export of energy.
This Outcome would support why Dhuum�s and Menzies� forces attacked the Hall of Heroes, to gain a food supply for the upcoming attempt to release Abaddon (which would also be why the Fury attacked Shing Jea during the Dragon Festival, to gather the Celestial Essences as a food supply).
River of Souls
A lovely topic with the Rift and spirits is the River of Souls. There are many thoughts about this going all over, most dominant seems to be that many people believe that it is the River of Souls that decides where people go. This is far from correct, and we have but to thank the incorrect person who put this idea on the wiki for this. The River of Souls� purpose is unknown.
However, I have a theory of its purpose. One belief is that it goes through all the Realms of the Gods, I would agree to this. But I will expand on this idea. I believe that the River of Souls goes in a circular path, never ending, never beginning. Some spirits are stuck in this River, as punishment, similar to that of the Envoys, but this is a lesser punishment.
From death, the spirit is taken to Grenth to be judged by the Envoys, except in rare cases. After being judged by Grenth, they are put in the River of Souls and the River takes the spirit to its correct resting place, as such, it passes through all the Realms, and nearby the Hall of Heroes, until it comes back to the Underworld.
The River of Souls never �dries up� because there are the spirits who are meant to be the �inter-Realm guides� for other spirits. These punished spirits could very well be the ones that help break the dam in the Gate of Pain mission.
Envoys
The Envoys were, in the past, great villains. After death, they were punished with the task of guiding the newly dead spirits to the Rift. Usually, the Envoys would take the spirits to the Underworld, but on rare occasions � such as Shiro Tagachi�s second death � would take spirits to the Realm of Torment.
While punished into a forced �community service� by Grenth, they are also given very strong powers. Such as controlling spirits, and the ability to resurrect people easily.
Norn Spirits
These spirits are an interesting thing to look at, as we know very little about them. What we know of them can be summarized with Egil Fireteller�s dialogue in Jaga Moraine:
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The Norn do not know gods, at least not in the way humans do. But we do revere the spirits of the animals upon whom we depend for food and shelter. There are many such spirits. Bear is the mightiest of course, but Raven, Owl, Wolf, Wurm, and Ox all have their place in the world and in our hearts. While we hunt and slay these creatures, we also praise their spirit, and thank them for their sacrifice. The animals are our brethren; their spirits guide us as we live and hunt.
There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world... spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.
There are at least six �good� spirits among the Norn folklore, these all take the aspect of an animal (Bear, Wolf, Raven, Owl, Wurm, and Ox). Along with these, there are at least four �evil� spirits, which take on aspect of nature (Mountains, Seasons, Fire, and Darkness).
The Animal Spirits are probably the spirits of a very magically adept animal, but why it interacts with the Norn is unknown. As for the Nature Spirits, it seems that the Norn just link an aspect of nature to have a hostile spirit because these parts of nature prove as challenges to the Norn, that they might not be interested in (they are more interested in fighting then trying to survive blizzards and the like).
Each of the Nature Spirits that we know of can be related to something in the Far Shiverpeaks that prove troublesome for the Norn, without giving a fight. Such as:
Mountain: Travelling the Shiverpeaks (obviously), making it hard to track prey, and making it annoying to get around.
Seasons: Winter brings more cold, summer could bring slushy snow (therefore making it annoying to move around), etc.
Fire: Kind of point blank. Fire melts snow and can kill things without a �real fight.�
Darkness: Probably connected to the bottomless pit in Jaga Moraine.
I have a theory on the Norn�s Origins, and their relations to the Animal Spirits, but that is for another thread.
Summoned Spirits
Nature Spirits
This is a short and simple thing. Although they have the name "spirit" in them, they are not the same type of spirit as a soul. As their own name says, they are Nature Spirits, which are, technically, aspects of Nature, from winter to Favored Winds, they all bring about a different natural affect.
Interesting thing to note, is that none of these Nature Spirits share a name with a known Norn Nature Spirit, while some ideas can be seen to be similar between what we know of the Norn Nature Spirits and these Nature Spirits.
Binding Ritual Spirits
The quest Haunted actually helps explain where the spirits that Ritualists summon come from. Although not directly explained, it has spirits summoned with the names Anguish, Sorrow, and Regret, and those spirits are suffering from such things. It seems to me, that the spirits that are summoned are regular spirits, that are filled with a certain type of emotion (e.g. Pain, Anguish, etc). It also seems that the more the emotion is stuck in them, the stronger it is.
Now of course not all of the spirits have the emotion of the name, as Empowerment and the like are not emotions. But they have the intent to do what the spirit does, such as the intent to help, so they help in different ways.
In other words, the spirits that Ritualists summon are regular spirits that just take the form of those aspects, as they are bound to where they are summoned (other spirits are not bound, so they have the shape of their physical form).
Mad King Thorn
Because we do not know if the Mad King Thorn is an Undead or a Spirit, I am giving him his own main section, in between covering Spirits and Undeath. Also, because there is a thread on Guru dedicated solely on our beloved mad king, I shall just link it, and summarize it.
Thorns Origins
Mad King was once a human king of Kryta. Due to the lack of family trees we cannot place him into a time period. When he was King its suggested by one of his quotes that he was a simple man rather than a 7ft spirit with a Pumpkin for a head. During his reign King Thorn had trouble with the Tengu who often caused chaos within Kryta. This grudge appears to last through to him becoming the Mad King.
He also implies that he was a military genius with an undefeated army and fleet that crushed any revolt that rose against him. Its hard to tell if he�s serious here due to him immediately placing Rock-Paper �Scissors on the same level as commanding an army. I would guess that he is indeed telling the truth and the Rock-Paper-Scissors comment comes from his own madness.
Thorn also had connections with Kamadan, after going there to woo an Elonian Princess who dwelled there. Its also implied that his rule extended or at least affected other races as one of the horsemen implies that other races should also be celebrating his return (the horseman in question orders the Grawls to be put to death for not joining in).
Unknown Things About Thorn
(Followed by my opinions)
- The Mad Kings appearance : when did he get this appearance and why?
- The Mad Kings sanity: When did he turn into this being of madness? Was it after his death or before? and is he evil or good?
- His status in death: Why is Thorn able to directly manipulate elements of the mortal realm? does he have some kind of envoy status within the Mists? or is he a special case altogether?
Sanity and Appearance: I think that it occured after death because of his joke:
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"When I first returned from the Land of the Dead, one of the fine citizens of Lion's Arch let out a cry: "Why King Thorn, you have a pumpkin on your head!"
"And I said, "Eh? So he repeated, "Milord, you have a pumpkin on your head!""
"And I said, "What? So he yelled, "Milord, you have a pumpkin on your head!""
"To which, I replied, "A thousand pardons, fine citizen, I cannot hear you. I HAVE A PUMPKIN ON MY HEAD!" HA HA HA HA HA!"
Bolded proves that before he returned from the Underworld (meaning before death) he didn't have a pumpkin for a head. Underlined suggests that he had courtesy, even after death. However, as these are a joke, it cannot be taken seriously, yet.
Status in Death: I think that Mad King Thorn is a Lich himself, like Khilbron and Palawa Joko � or more accurately Zoldark *will get to that later*. It is known that a Lich can control the weaker undead and that they are very strong. This can support his unusual high amount of power by being able to instantly kill people and change areas to his desire. He would just be much more powerful the Khilbron, and is able to move between the Underworld and Tyria (whether due to something he did in life, or due to the power he gained by becoming a lich).
Back to Insanity: I theorize, that the reason why Thorn is maddened, possibly the reason for his distorted figure, is that he fell into the Bone Pits and was transformed/maddened by the Realm of Torment.
Undeath
Undead
As we all know, undead are dead bodies that have been animated. And of course, only a Necromancer can make an undead. True undead, not minions like what those of the *barely mentioned* "Order" of the Necromancers create, are created by attaching a soul to a dead body, creating an *usually* obedient servant.
This means that the spirit is trapped within the body, forcing a second Mortal life on the spirit. When that body is killed *again*, the spirit would be released and move to the next stage, a Ghostly Life, until the spirit is taken to the Rift or is put into yet another dead body to create a new undead.
Difference between Minions and Undead
There are two differences between Minions and Undead, but these two things make the two completely different as well.
The first difference is the physical difference. Minions are formed of shambles of bone and flesh, while Undead are formed of the entire body *or what is left of it*. This means that an Undead�s body is much more stable then that of a Minion, which is why a Minion will die over time, while an Undead will not.
The second difference is how they are made. Minions are created from just a portion of the Necromancer�s energy, while Undead are created from the use of an entire spirit, and probably the creator�s energy as well (and a lot more of it to add). This means that it is more difficult to make an Undead compared to making a Minion.
Afflicted
Afflicted, despite their origins, are very much like undead, and can even be considered a sub-species of undead. They are created by Shiro when he does not move spirits to their destination. Whether they are spirits put into a body like other undead or are literally created by the plague and not Shiro's immediate actions, I have yet to find out.
However, in the Minister Cho�s Estate mission, Cho dies, then he becomes an afflicted. Vizunah Square mission, those affected by the plague (those that are maddened, and hostile) and those just in the nearby area become afflicted after they die. This supports that the Afflicted are in fact undead. But it is not enough to confirm such.
Also, there are the quests The Chalice of Corruption and Chasing Zenmai. These two quests show the ability to �imbue� the affliction without the help of Shiro, and well after he is sent into the Realm of Torment. This then goes against the idea that the Afflicted are a form of undead. But, like above, this is cannot fully disprove the undead connection.
All that is known for sure is that Shiro can control spirits.
So Afflicted are either a different type of Undead, or they are corrupted bodies and souls.
Shiro'Ken
Shiro'ken are also very much like Undead. Also created by Shiro like the Afflicted, these are only created by immediate actions by Shiro. In order to create Shiro'ken, he must take spirits and bind them to souls stones, which then control armor and other objects *the humanoid seem to be armor while the others seem to be statue or something of the like*.
So Shiro'ken are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate objects, just as Undead are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate bodies.
Liches
Liches are powerful magicians that casted a spell before they died that would preserve their spirit in their body.
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In modern fantasy fiction, a lich (IPA: /ˈlɪtʃ/) (sometimes spelled liche, cognate to German Leiche"corpse") is a type of undead creature, usually formerly a powerful magician or king, who has used evil rituals to bind his intellect to his animated corpse and thereby achieve a perverse form of immortality.
There are three known Liches � Vizier Khilbron, aka The Lich Lord, Palawa Joko, and Zoldark - and of these liches, only one's origin is known. That being Khilbron, an Orrian Vizier who was corrupted by Abaddon and used an ancient scroll to destroy Orr, which in turn, transformed him into a lich. Palawa Joko's and Zoldark's origins are unknown as of now, and it seems that Zoldark will not be mentioned again in the future as he was just a side-boss that we killed *supposedly, it is unknown if he, like Joko and Khilbron, can reanimate himself*.
As I just stated, Palawa Joko and Vizier Khilbron can both reanimate themselves upon death. That is, their souls do not leave their bodies. This is the main thing that separates a "True Lich" from the powerful Undead that lead others. It is because of this, that Zoldark may not be a "True Lich," but just a powerful undead. It is also known that "True Liches" have to be killed in a very specific way, such as how we kill Khilbron.
Vizier Khilbron
Vizier Khilbron became a lich, supposedly, during the events of the Cataclysm. He read an ancient scroll, which sunk Orr, after that, Khilbron is known to be a lich, controlling the Orrian Army as Undead.
There is an issue here though. Usually, when a Necromancer (of any caliber) dies, his minions, or in this case undead, would die with him. This is shown with Zoldark, when what causes the raising of Undead dies, those undead that were raised die too.
This proves that Khilbron was not what caused the raising of the Undead in Orr, so there are only two possible sources. These are The Cataclysm, caused by Khilbron, and the Undead Dragon � nicknamed "Malchor" by the GW2 wiki. The Forbidden Scroll that caused The Cataclysm most likely holds the power of either Abaddon or Dhuum, so instead of when Khilbron dies, when whoever�s power is in the scroll dies, the Undead would to. Abaddon was killed in Nightfall, but the Undead are still around a year later, in Eye of the North, therefore, if it was the scroll which turned everyone into an Undead, it would have to be Dhuum�s power.
There is a hole though, there are about five or six spirits from Orr in the Realm of Torment. Also, where are the Undead Charr? Such a general spell would not choose between them, and although Khilbron could have the Undead Charr killed off (for prejudice reasons), he could not control those spirits, so they would not have made it to the Realm of Torment.
This is where my theory comes in. The Cataclysm simply killed the Orrians and Charr, and sunk the Orrian Peninsula, and it was the "Malchor�s" power which animated the Orrians, and Khilbron.
Khilbron was influenced the most due to his proximity; he was in the Catacombs of Orr, and therefore the closest to "Malchor." It is also possible that Khilbron was a lich long before the Cataclysm, as he was around since the Second Great Corsair War (which happened in 982AE, about 90 years before the Cataclysm). He could have done something to what Svanir did with Drakkar, that is, call upon "Malchor�s" power.
At the time of the Cataclysm, it is possible, if Khilbron was a lich before the cataclysm that is, that he tried to use "Malchor�s" power again, which did a wide spread turning of people into undead. This would have had to be done this way, as if it was Khilbron�s own power, the Orrian Undead would now be, well, dead.
Palawa Joko
Now, we get to Palawa Joko, everyone�s favorite bad guy in Guild Wars.
Palawa Joko has no known past, and the first mention of him is in 757 AE, where he makes his Bone Palace. This means he was probably born (as a human) no later then 700 AE. There is absolutely nothing else on him, so from here on about Palawa Joko, is a hypothesis.
I believe, that Palawa Joko, like Khilbron, �called forth� the power of "Malchor." I believe this because the Awakened Undead and Joko have closer similarities to Orr then anywhere in Elona, at least in my observations. Orr has an Arabic background (most dominant in the naming system), the Awakened have Egyptian backgrounds, Cyrstal Desert seems to have Sahara backgrounds, Istan has Madagascar similarities, Kourna has eastern Africa, and Vabbi has South Africa. I may be wrong in these connections, if so sorry and correct me.
I think that Palawa Joko was once Orrian, and whether on purpose or accident, used "Malchor�s" power (most likely accidentally finding but purposely using). He seems like a power hungry �person� so he could have been searching for ancient knowledge in the Catacombs of Orr, and accidentally found "Malchor," or at least �Malchor�s� magic seeping out.
After becoming an Undead, I believe tried to make an Undead Army, but was exiled (since they could not kill him), where he fled across the Crystal Desert, and into the Desolation. From there, he did some grave robbing and Giant killing in order to start his undead army, and slowly built up and then came forth the Scourge of Vabbi.
Again, little to back this up, so it is a hypothesis.
Zoldark
I believe that Zoldark, seemingly the oldest of all undead, as his army�s name implies (Ancient). He would be considered a different class of a lich. Instead of being able to �chain his soul� to his body, he can chain the souls of others to their bodies, forcing them to serve no matter how many times they die.
Because of his inability to make himself �immortal,� once he died, his entire army did too, as his magic is what kept their souls constantly chained to their bodies.
It is hard to figure out what kind of Lich Mad King Thorn is � if at all � due to the lack of information on him, but I would believe that he has nothing to do with �Malchor.�
In this, I summarize that it is "Malchor�s" power that allows one to become a �True Lich,� while any other lich are just able to control Undead, and in powerful cases, bind their souls to their bodies until the lich�s death.
Undead Dragon (a.k.a. �Malchor�)
Sadly, very little is known about the "Malchor" residing under Orr. But what is known is that it is able to change both living and dead into draconic undead servants. This implies that "Malchor" acts very similar to that of a "True Lich.� Also, with it�s possible ability to create �True Liches� himself, he could be a combination of both Zoldark�s power and a �True Liches� power. In that, the �True Liches� he makes are in fact just simply very power Undead (like Zoldark) who are bound to be eternal servants (until "Malchor�s" own death).
This may mean that, in GW2, when we kill �Malchor,� Palawa Joko may end up dying as well.|||Pff..okay, done reading. Nice revision.
Some things that I wanted to point out:
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Afflicted, despite their origins, are very much like undead, and can even be considered a sub-species of undead. They are created by Shiro when he does not move spirits to their destination. Whether they are spirits put into a body like other undead or are literally created by the plague and not Shiro's immediate actions, I have yet to find out.
I personally think Shiro used mostly his Envoy powers to create Afflicted. Diseases and plagues can cause mutations to people that are afflicted with them, and I think that this is also the case here. The plague first makes the afflicted humans go insane (somehow affects their brains), after which they seem to fill up with gas and explode. This explosion is probably the reason for the mutations; it sort of blows the body in a different shape. So now the Afflicted is dead, at least, that is what he is supposed to be. But this is where Shiro's power really comes in; he doesn't transport the souls of the dead to the afterlife, and instead forces them to remain in their bodies, which are now entirely mutated.
I don't know what he uses for manipulation of the Afflicted Ones after though, but we do know that he makes them fight for his cause.
Pretty much what you summed, just a little bit more detailed.
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Shiro'ken are also very much like Undead. Also created by Shiro like the Afflicted, these are only created by immediate actions by Shiro. In order to create Shiro'ken, he must take spirits and bind them to souls stones, which then control armor and other objects *the humanoid seem to be armor while the others seem to be statue or something of the like*.
So Shiro'ken are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate objects, just as Undead are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate bodies.
This is something that I don't fully understand..especially the bolded part. I don't see how Shiro can just take spirits, does he use spirits that he was supposed to guide to the Mists (the ones that didn't die of the plague), and does he attach those to armor with the use of soul stones? If so, how come he still has some of his Shiro'ken in the Realm of Torment?
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I think that Palawa Joko was once Orrian, and whether on purpose or accident, used "Malchor�s" power (most likely accidentally finding but purposely using). He seems like a power hungry �person� so he could have been searching for ancient knowledge in the Catacombs of Orr, and accidentally found "Malchor," or at least �Malchor�s� magic seeping out.
This is your hypothesis and therefor you'll probably have more people disagreeing than agreeing with this, but that doesn't matter for the moment. I just felt that I needed to say that it is a bit far-fetched.
For the rest of the thread you get my sign of approval, it's not like you care for my approval though.
|||Yeah..I find it much, much, more likely that the original idea held behind the transformation into a Lich was the proper one. That is, some kind of disaster occurs due to a person transforming into a Lich. At least in that scenario we have an explanation for the Scarab Plague's origins and Joko's origins. It's still farfetched, but to a lesser extent.
To put it simply, I think you're having Ancient Dragon syndrome, except in a different direction this time.
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Also, there are the quests The Chalice of Corruption and Chasing Zenmai. These two quests show the ability to �imbue� the affliction without the help of Shiro, and well after he is sent into the Realm of Torment. This then goes against the idea that the Afflicted are a form of undead. But, like above, this is cannot fully disprove the undead connection.
This actually gives me the idea that the transformation into the Afflicted isn't exactly so much as an ability of the Envoys, but an actual disease. The disease could have easily been provided by Abaddon or Dhuum or some other cabal.
The manipulation of the spirits by forcing them into the Afflicted forms would then just be an Envoy ability, and a measure taken to sustain that twisted form. The soul would only then become corrupted by simply feeling what it is like to be in that type of vessel, which I imagine would drive anyone insane.
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This is something that I don't fully understand..especially the bolded part. I don't see how Shiro can just take spirits, does he use spirits that he was supposed to guide to the Mists (the ones that didn't die of the plague), and does he attach those to armor with the use of soul stones? If so, how come he still has some of his Shiro'ken in the Realm of Torment?
There are plenty of souls in the Realm of Torment to use. Aside from that, the Margonites have armor still, so I imagine armor isn't hard to find, assuming it's not the same armor from when they were initially cast down. At any rate, that is a very vague area, and it's difficult to determine how exactly it works out.|||Quote:
This is something that I don't fully understand..especially the bolded part. I don't see how Shiro can just take spirits, does he use spirits that he was supposed to guide to the Mists (the ones that didn't die of the plague), and does he attach those to armor with the use of soul stones? If so, how come he still has some of his Shiro'ken in the Realm of Torment?
For the "what spirits" it would be spirits he was meant to take to the Mists. For the Realm of Torment Shiro'ken, he just binds souls that were placed in the Realm of Torment into Shiro'ken using Soul Stones like he did in Cantha (The quest A History of Violence shows that these Shiro'ken are also bound spirits).
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This is your hypothesis and therefor you'll probably have more people disagreeing than agreeing with this, but that doesn't matter for the moment. I just felt that I needed to say that it is a bit far-fetched.
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Yeah..I find it much, much, more likely that the original idea held behind the transformation into a Lich was the proper one. That is, some kind of disaster occurs due to a person transforming into a Lich.
At least in that scenario we have an explanation for the Scarab Plague's origins and Joko's origins. It's still farfetched, but to a lesser extent.
To put it simply, I think you're having Ancient Dragon syndrome, except in a different direction this time.
Although the Scarab Plague-Joko connection do hold some value - which was where I originally place Joko's origins in my first version of the Undead research - the "Malchor" connection was just a thought that came to me, which I thought needed to be thrown out there to be known.
Currently, it is near impossible to tell which of the two would be more correct, unless we get some history on Joko or Zoldark, both ideas are possible.
We only know of Khilbron's origins so I just put out the idea of "Malchor" being the source of "True Liches."
And no, not having Ancient Dragon syndrome. I was just expanding on the idea of "'Malchor' was the power behind the Orrian Army becoming Undead."
I am currently on the fence of the "Major Disaster occurs as well" theory and the "Malchor is the source" theory *or hypothesis, whichever*. And I just wanted to bring this out, I was tempted to throw both ideas into the thread, but then there would be inconsistencies and last time that happened, many people were confused. :P
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I don't know what he uses for manipulation of the Afflicted Ones after though, but we do know that he makes them fight for his cause.
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This actually gives me the idea that the transformation into the Afflicted isn't exactly so much as an ability of the Envoys, but an actual disease. The disease could have easily been provided by Abaddon or Dhuum or some other cabal.
The manipulation of the spirits by forcing them into the Afflicted forms would then just be an Envoy ability, and a measure taken to sustain that twisted form. The soul would only then become corrupted by simply feeling what it is like to be in that type of vessel, which I imagine would drive anyone insane.
A thought just came to me (wish it came before I posted). With the Afflicted having to actually die (as is proven) in order to be Shiro's Afflicted, it is possible that a powerful Am Fah necromancer (in this case, would be either an unknown person, Brother Tosai *his profession is unknown*, or Chan the Dragon's Blood) could be the source of the Am Fah Afflicted. That is, same process as what Jair said *disease, internal explosion and death* then either Shiro, or a powerful Necromancer from the Am Fah put the soul back into the body.|||I think it would be more likely as an effort requiring both a Necromancer and a Ritualist. The Necromancer animates the Afflicted into being, while the Ritualist binds the soul into the Afflicted, sustaining it.
Kind of combining the ideas, really.|||Spirits and Ghost are different things in GW.
The only real spirits found in GW are the Druids, the Nature ritual spirits and most creatures that look like Ritualist spirits.
The creatures seen when /kneeling to a shrine are not spirits. They are their own race in GW, whatever they are. Wiki editors usually call them 'avatars'.
Most translucent greenish creatures are ghosts (as all translucent purplish ones), as most not-greenish translucent members of th Undead Army.
Envoys are more like the Avatars seen by /kneeling to shrines.
They are somehow spirits, by they have powers no spirit would ever have.
ALL Eternals are ghosts. Eternals are those that serve Balthazar in the Fissure of Woe.
Shiro'ken are more like Titans than spirits. They are constructs made by Shiro with bodies of bone, flesh, stone and metal, powered with souls he trapped in them. Their cores are made out of stone, and souls are trapped there until the Shiro'ken is destroyed.
Afflicted are a bit like Shiro'ken, but with souls trapped in the mutating and dying body of the owner instead a fully remade one. IT must be horrible being like that, being aware of everything like in a nightmare, but unable to make anything but scream in pain and attack people.
Undead are NOT a species. They are an army, an affiliation, an allegiance. Among the undead many families of creatures can be found:
- Skeletons (Bone bodies)
- Ghosts (No body)
- Ghouls, Zombies and Liches (Rotting bodies)
- Mummies (Dried bodies)
There are even elementals between their ranks.
So all they have in common is that their souls stay in the material plane, without leaving to the mists, and in many cases they even stay connected to the body, animating it like if the body was a construct.
One interesting thing is that all undead are part of that army, including palawa's undead. So Orrian and Elonian undead could perfectly be related.
Aditionally, there are no undead in Cantha. Since Cantha is too far away from where Orr was and were the Undead dragon could sleep, all undead could perfectly be animated by the power of the Undead dragon.
I wish there were more information out there about Rotscale. What is he guarding? What is behind the gates he rests? The tomb of a king? Which King?
All constructs need a source of power to move. The power used may vary depending on the way to create the construct.
- We know that Stone Summit golems are animated with Elemental spirits.
- We also know that Titans are animated with tormented souls.
- Jade constructs are animated with sacrificed chosen ones' souls.
- Shiro'ken with afflicted souls.
- I don't know what animates Temple Guardians and Stone guardians souls.
- Juggernauts are animated with Souls of volunteer Kurzick people.
- Carven Effigies are probably elemental spirits trapped in stone bodies.
- Monoliths are another mystery, but they are probably animated with tormented souls.
- Charr hunter beats are another mistery, but they are probably animated with elemental spirits.
- I don't know what king os soul or spirit powers Golems, but since their power source is related to bloodstones, they are probably animated with souls of monsters that died in Bloodstone caves.
- I suspect Roaring Ethers are constructs created by Djinns, probably animated with elemental spirits they capture in their plane.
- Enchanted weaponry and armors are another mistery to me. They seem to be animated by other means, specially the ones that follow ettins.
It seems that all constructs animated with Elemental spirits are elementals themselves.|||Quote:
Spirits and Ghost are different things in GW.
Most translucen greenish creatures are ghost, as most not-greenish translucent members of th Undead Army.
Actually, Ghosts and Spirits are the same. the "members of the Undead Army" are spirits in the "Ghostly Life." Same goes for the Restless Spirits in Ascalon and the Crystal Desert/Desolation (those that do not serve Palawa Joko). If anything is a "ghost" in GW, it would be the Phantoms and Spectres, not the spirits that you are talking about.
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Envoys are more like the Avatars seen by /kneeling to shrines.
They are somehow spirits, by they have powers no spirit would ever have.
You need to know the lore a bit more. Envoys are the spirits of past villains who's punishment is to guide newly dead spirits to the afterlife.
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Shiro'ken are more like Titans than spirits. They are constructs made by Shiro with bone, flesh, stone and metal, powered with souls he trapped in them.
This is basically what I said, except for the Titan conparison.
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Afflicted are a bit like Shiro'ken, but with souls trapped in the mutating and dying body of the owner instead a fully remade one.
Again, kind of what I said, but comparing Shiro'ken to Afflicted instead.
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Undead are NOT a species. They are an army, an affiliation, an allegiance. Among the undead many families of creatures can be found:
- Skeletons.
- Ghosts
- Ghouls
- Mummies
Never said they were a species. Never implied that either. Also, Ghosts/Ghouls/Spirits are all basically the same thing, etheral creatures made of ectoplasm.
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All constructs need a source of power to move. The power used may vary depending on the way to create the construct.
- We know that Stone Summit golems are animated with Elemental spirits.
- We also know that Titans are animated with tormented souls.
- Jade constructs are animated with sacrificed chosen ones' souls.
- Shiro'ken with afflicted souls.
- I don't know what animates Temple Guardians and Stone guardians souls.
- Juggernauts are animated with Souls of volunteer Kurzick people.
- Carven Effigies are probably elemental spirits trapped in stone bodies.
- Monoliths are another mystery, but they are probably animated with tormented souls.
- Charr hunter beats are another mistery, but they are probably animated with elemental spirits.
- I don't know what king os soul or spirit powers Golems, but since their power source is related to bloodstones, they are probably animated with souls of monsters that died in Bloodstone caves.
- I suspect Roaring Ethers are constructs created by Djinns, probably animated with elemental spirits they capture in their plane.
- Enchanted weaponry and armors are another mistery to me. They seem to be animated by other means, specially the ones that follow ettins.
This is going a bit off topic. You're talking about contructs now, not spirits. Shiro'ken are constructs, but are very similar to Afflicted, which is why I included them, and Afflicted are debated to be Undead.
Also, as far as we know there are no "elemental spirits."
I'll humor you and go off topic and talk about constructs.
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- We know that Stone Summit golems are animated with Elemental spirits.
Animated by the Heart of Ice used by Greplak Froststaff.
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- We also know that Titans are animated with tormented souls.
Not technically constructs, as far as we know, they are the spirits, twisted into what we see.
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- Jade constructs are animated with sacrificed chosen ones' souls.
Theorized, not proven.
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- Shiro'ken with afflicted souls.
A bit more general, souls, not having to be afflicted.
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- I don't know what animates Temple Guardians and Stone guardians souls.
Not spirits, but simple magic (Temple Guardians I'm not sure about, but the Stone Guardians are animated by magical wards and protections, aka magic, by the zu Heltzer house, proved by the Historian of Houses.)
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- Juggernauts are animated with Souls of volunteer Kurzick people.
Not really proven what exactly they are, but I'd have to say that the old bodies are just "infused" with amber and plant-life from the Forever Trees, so imo, not really constructs.
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- Carven Effigies are probably elemental spirits trapped in stone bodies.
Again, no mention of "elemental spirits" other then Djinn themselves, and these I think are just regular spirits trapped in stone bodies.
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- Monoliths are another mystery, but they are probably animated with tormented souls.
Forgot to comment on this one before, I agree with Leon below this, that monoliths are magically animated.
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- Charr hunter beats are another mistery, but they are probably animated with elemental spirits.
These are elementals. Not constructs.
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- I don't know what king os soul or spirit powers Golems, but since their power source is related to bloodstones, they are probably animated with souls of monsters that died in Bloodstone caves.
I don't know what you are talking about here, too many typos. Do you mean Asura Golems? If so, these are not constructs really either, and are powered by simple magic and technology, made from rock, plants, and other bio-material.
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- I suspect Roaring Ethers are constructs created by Djinns, probably animated with elemental spirits they capture in their plane.
These are just elementals, not constructs.
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- Enchanted weaponry and armors are another mistery to me. They seem to be animated by other means, specially the ones that follow ettins.
I question if you even fully read what I wrote because you are going way off track.|||Quote:
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- Jade constructs are animated with sacrificed chosen ones' souls.
Theorized, not proven.
That's not even really theorized, if my memory isn't mistaken. It's a possibility, and I wouldn't doubt it being theorized, but it seems equally likely that it could be Mursaat placing themselves within the Jades. It's even possible they're just automatons, as we see them "activated" by a Mursaat as it flees in one mission.
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- Carven Effigies are probably elemental spirits trapped in stone bodies.
Again, no mention of "elemental spirits" other then Djinn themselves, and these I think are just regular spirits trapped in stone bodies.
- Monoliths are another mystery, but they are probably animated with tormented souls.
I don't even think they are stone bodies, I think it's a bit like a sarcophagus containing the body, and the soul is infused in the mummified body.
I think Monoliths are just magically animated, like the Stone Guardians of the Echovald Forest. It makes much more sense, in my opinion, as there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
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One interesting thing is that all undead are part of that army, including palawa's undead. So Orrian and Elonian undead could perfectly be related.
Aditionally, there are no undead in Cantha. Since Cantha is too far away from where Orr was and were the Undead dragon could sleep, all undead could perfectly be animated by the power of the Undead dragon.
....No. Just no. The latter part is a small possibility, in regards to the Orrian Undead. The former, is just..No. Not only were there centuries between the two armies being animated, but there's no real indication of the Orrians journeying into the Desolation for anything, not even burials. If they did any burials, they did them in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, but that's in the far northern reaches of the Crystal Desert.|||Eh... no.
Ghosts and spirits are NOT the same. I thought the same a long time ago, and in my times edition the old Guild Wars Guru Wiki I edited spirits and ghosts with that in mind, but now I KNOW that they are not the same, after asking Anet developers in the original wiki, I do know that they are not the same family.
I asked the Dev if all greenish creatures where ghosts, and the answer was clear.
Ghosts are those:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghost
It is also known that the Phantoms seen in the Fire Islands are not ghosts, although many creatures that people though were Phantoms because they called Phantoms are actually ghosts, like the Shock Panthoms.
If I have to make a distinction between ghosts and spirits, it's that spirits resemble much more what they were when they were alive, and all of them have been alive. They are very active and will look and move like they did when they were alive.
But spirits are usually more 'mindless' and passive. Druids may talk and have reason, but they are quite slow-minded, as if their where ghosts merged with the spirits of trees.
Envoys were called 'spirits' but the in-game term 'spirit' is quite exclusive to a type of creature.
Envoys are more like ghosts, and somehow like some spirits, like the druid, but they are not ghosts, and they are too powerfull to be spirits. They are their own type of creature. They are envoys, just that.
You can't also say that ghosts are spirits in the undead army because there are ghosts in the undead army, and ghosts that are not in the undead army.
Examples of Ghosts not in the undead army are the Eternals, the Lightbringer and Sunspear spirits seen by shrines or Ang the Ephemeral.
Skills that destroy spirits work in spirits ONLY. They do not affect ghosts, because they are a different thing.
I forgot while writting. You didn't said that undead were the same species, but you did said that they are 'animated dead bodies', putting them in the same bag.
Not all undead are animated. Some happen to rise for other reasons without a necromancer around.
Not all undead have bodies. The ghosts that are part of the undead army have no bodies.
Not all undead are dead. The elemental spirits in their ranks are just elemental spirits that work for them.
A construct is not a species in GW.
Construct refers to any artificially made creature.
Stone summit golems, for example, look like Ice elementals, and their species is elemental, but they are not naturally created like other elementals, that 'sprout' when an elemental spirit manifests in the material plane from their original planes.
So a construct can be BOTH construct and elemental. The only thing needed to know if a creature is a construct it's if it appeared naturally or it was crafted, animated or enchanted with artifical means.
The most common mean to animate a construct is to trap a soul (ghost) or spirit on it.
So if you talk about spirits, ghosts, undead and souls, you must talk about constructs too.
The lore is not the scripts only.You can't just red a lot of Dev talk and manual lore and try to merge it all. You must enter the game and play it.
The lore writings are a base, the real lore is the final result inside the game.
There are some mistakes in the writings, because some things changed after the release of the game.
Razah is a good example of that. What Razah 'could have been' varied in the original lore, but what Razah 'is' it's fixed.
So, after reading the 'written lore'. We enter the game, and change the "Razah is variable" into: "Raza could have been anything, but he is Ritualist".
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That's not even really theorized, if my memory isn't mistaken. It's a possibility, and I wouldn't doubt it being theorized, but it seems equally likely that it could be Mursaat placing themselves within the Jades. It's even possible they're just automatons, as we see them "activated" by a Mursaat as it flees in one mission.[/Quotes]
When I say 'powered' I don't mean that the soul is there moving the armor like if it was a the metal armor of a warrior.
The soul is there as energy, like a battery, and it's consumed as the jade construct moves.
But the 'mind' (or whatever jade armors and jade seals have) of the construct is programmed by Mursaat.
They are not brainwashed souls obeying the trapper.
That's what I meant with that.
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I don't even think they are stone bodies, I think it's a bit like a sarcophagus containing the body, and the soul is infused in the mummified body.
I thought also that they would be mummies in stone bodies, but they family is "elemental".
That means that they are either constructs with elemental spirits inside or elemental spirits themselves.
Maybe there's a mummy is inside, but they must be infused with elementals pirits to count as elemental for bounties.
[Quotes]I think Monoliths are just magically animated, like the Stone Guardians of the Echovald Forest. It makes much more sense, in my opinion, as there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
I tend to put them in a similar bag like enchanted weapons. They are more like 'things' than other constructed criatures.
But what is true that there's must be a source of energy to animate them, whatever there is. That is hat I don't know.
We could make out something if there were more information about how are they made. All we know about their possible origin is that Abaddon could summon them really easy.
That's what I think that he uses tormented souls as their source of energy, since Abaddon has plenty of them in his realm.
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....No. Just no. The latter part is a small possibility, in regards to the Orrian Undead. The former, is just..No. Not only were there centuries between the two armies being animated, but there's no real indication of the Orrians journeying into the Desolation for anything, not even burials. If they did any burials, they did them in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, but that's in the far northern reaches of the Crystal Desert.
I didn't tell anything about what could be the relation.
Palawa kept control over some of the undead, but many others went berserk.
Why? Control must be kept at all times over them?
An external influence forcing them to change sides?
All what we really know is that the "+% damage to undead" weapon modifier looks the ARMY of the undead, not the family, and if it deals extra damage to Awakened, and since we can't test the weapon against those undead Palawa control since they turn into allies we can't attack once they change sides, we can only tell that those Awakaned that are not controlled by Palawa are part of the standard undead army, like all orrian undead are.
So, in the end, that relation can be only once thing: Whatever may be controlling them.
I didn't imply any relation about timeline or origins.|||Seeing how you updated your post after I commented...
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There are even elementals between their ranks.
So all they have in common is that their souls stay in the material plane, without leaving to the mists, and in many cases they even stay connected to the body, animating it like if the body was a construct.
Elementals in their ranks? Do you mean the Crags? I think those are more of an affect of Nightfall, and they just, thanks to game mechanics, don't fight undead. If not an affect of Nightfall, then they are just Elementals like the Djinn, parts of the world brought to life via magic.
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One interesting thing is that all undead are part of that army, including palawa's undead. So Orrian and Elonian undead could perfectly be related.
Aditionally, there are no undead in Cantha. Since Cantha is too far away from where Orr was and were the Undead dragon could sleep, all undead could perfectly be animated by the power of the Undead dragon.
It's one thing to say Joko is Orrian, but to say that all of Joko's army is Orrian? No. There are Centaurs in that army, Elonian Centaurs. Joko is known to turn his fallen enemies into undead as well. The Awakened Army is purely/mostly Elonian. Giants, Centaurs, and Kournan/Vabbian ghosts/names. Purely Elonian.
The Undead Dragon statement that you said, I would link to the whole Palawa Joko/Khilbron/"Malchor" connection, not that they are all brought back by "Malchor."
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Eh... no.
Ghosts and spirits are NOT the same. I thought the same a long time ago, but now I KNOW that they are not the same, after asking Anet developers in the original wiki, I do know that they are not the same family.
I asked the Dev if all greenish creatures where ghosts, and the answer was clear.
Ghosts are those:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghost
It is also known that the Phantoms seen in the Fire Islands are not ghosts, although many creatures that people though were Phantoms because they called Phantoms are actually ghosts, like the Shock Panthoms.
Envoys were called 'spirits' but the in-game term 'spirit' is quite exclusive to a type of creature.
Envoys are more like ghosts, and somehow like some spirits, like the druid, but they are not ghosts, and they are too powerfull to be spirits. They are their own type of creature. They are envoys, just that.
You can't also say that ghosts are spirits in the undead army because there are ghosts in the undead army, and ghosts that are not in the undead army.
Examples of Ghosts not in the undead army are the Eternals, the Lightbringer and Sunspear spirits seen by shrines or Ang the Ephemeral.
Skills that destroy spirits work in spirits ONLY. They do not affect ghosts, because they are a different thing.
This is game mechanics, not lore. There is a fine difference. In game mechanics, Spirits=what ritualists summon, Ghost=Souls. What I mean by Spirit is the same as a Soul, therefore is the same as a Ghost. You are talking merely about game mechanics.
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I forgot while writting. You didn't said that undead were the same species, but you did said that they are 'animated dead bodies', putting them in the same bag.
Not all undead are animated. Some happen to rise for other reasons without a necromancer around.
Not all undead have bodies. The ghosts that are part of the undead army have no bodies.
Not all undead are dead. The elemental spirits in their ranks are just elemental spirits that work for them.
Undead are Undead, different species are used to create them, primarily in Joko's army, but if they are of any "species" they would be what I call a "sub-species" of any species there is. And by "sub-species" I mean a group/affiliation that is created from another (i.e. Undead, Wardens, Titans, Afflicted, etc.)
As for the Ghost are Undead without bodies, look above. Ghosts are the same as "Restless Spirits," and therefore not undead. They are in Undead armies, but are dead, not undead. Your definition of "spirit" is going by game mechanics, mine is going by the main idea of a spirit, soul, and ghost, that is the life essence of a creature that is not held by a body.
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A construct is not a species in GW.
Construct refers to any artificially made creature.
Stone summit golems, for example, look like Ice elementals, and their species is elemental, but they are not naturally created like other elementals, that 'sprout' when an elemental spirit manifests in the material plane from their original planes.
So a construct can be BOTH construct and elemental. The only thing needed to know if a creature is a construct it's if it appeared naturally or it was crafted, animated or enchanted with artifical means.
The most common mean to animate a construct is to trap a soul (ghost) or spirit on it.
So if you talk about spirits, ghosts, undead and souls, you must talk about constructs too.
I don't "must," if you look at the original versions of my Undead and Spirit threads (although you cannot for the Spirit thread, as it is now gone), I never combine the two, in my original Spirits thread, I only talk about the three "stages," in my Undead thread I only talk about Liches and the Undead/Minions difference. I added things, but I did not add everything.
Also, the origin of an Elemental is not so much the same as a Construct (that is, this "elemental spirit" takes physical form by possessing an element, as you suggest), but what seems to me what Elementals are, are an element, such as ice, that it "brought to life" with magic, not necessarily a soul, just magic. If it was souls that powered each and every elemental, then elementals would be persecuted and banned as "illegal" but at the tower in Wizard's Folly, there is no mention of "illegal work." Which is why I classify elementals and constructs as two different things.
Just a note for your enjoyment, I might include Constructs in my next revision. Just don't expect it soon.
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The lore is not the scripts only.You can't just red a lot of Dev talk and manual lore and try to merge it all. You must enter the game and play it.
The lore writings are a base, the real lore is the final result inside the game.
There are some mistakes in the writings, because some things changed after the release of the game.
Razah is a good example of that. What Razah 'could have been' varied in the original lore, but what Razah 'is' it's fixed.
I very much immerse myself into the game for my research, thank you very much. I understand where you are coming from but it is not where I am, and that is where the problem lies. You are combining Lore with Game Mechanics *such as the Ghost vs Spirit thing*, I am not. You are also over-simplifying Elementals and constructs as the same thing, which cannot be done without research. If you make a thread, with research, I will argue then. But for now, I am going to mark it as off-topic (as it currently is) and ignore it.
This is on-going research, I am merely updating my findings and beliefs. As such I might even change my lich section back to how it was originally (that is, the "major disaster happens with a lich's creation" theory instead of the Undead Dragon being the source of Khilbron and Joko), as I am on the fence about that. I may or may not expand to include Constructs, but like I said before, I don't consider Elementals to be Constructs, so I probably will not include them.
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When I say 'powered' I don't mean that the soul is there moving the armor like if it was a the metal armor of a warrior.
The soul is there as energy, like a battery, and it's consumed as the jade construct moves.
But the 'mind' (or whatever jade armors and jade seals have) of the construct is programmed by Mursaat.
They are not brainwashed souls obeying the trapper.
That's what I meant with that.
Either way, it is not proven. It is theorized to be either a soul powering, or a Mursaat completely controlling with the aspect splitting.
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I thought also that they would be mummies in stone bodies, but they family is "elemental".
That means that they are either constructs with elemental spirits inside or elemental spirits themselves.
Maybe there's a mummy is inside, but they must be infused with elementals pirits to count as elemental for bounties.
Again, you are looking at a Game Mechanics thing. You cannot always trust game mechanics when looking at lore.
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I tend to put them in a similar bag like enchanted weapons. They are more like 'things' than other constructed criatures.
But what is true that there's must be a source of energy to animate them, whatever there is. That is hat I don't know.
We could make out something if there were more information about how are they made. All we know about their possible origin is that Abaddon could summon them really easy.
That's what I think that he uses tormented souls as their source of energy, since Abaddon has plenty of them in his realm.
Like before, I say that these are magically powered, not by a complete soul, just energy, much like a Minion, but more.
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I didn't tell anything about what could be the relation.
Palawa kept control over some of the undead, but many others went berserk.
Why? Control must be kept at all times over them?
An external influence forcing them to change sides?
All what we really know is that the "+% damage to undead" weapon modifier looks the ARMY of the undead, not the family, and if it deals extra damage to Awakened, and since we can't test the weapon against those undead Palawa control since they turn into allies we can't attack once they change sides, we can only tell that those Awakaned that are not controlled by Palawa are part of the standard undead army, like all orrian undead are.
So, in the end, that relation can be only once thing: Whatever may be controlling them.
I didn't imply any relation about timeline or origins.
The undead didn't go berserk, they just took the chance of Joko's fall and imprisonment to try to have control themselves, but there were too many factions that the Undead basically started their own internal war. Chain of command failed. These Undead just simply wanted power. By that "army" modifier thing. That is too all undead really, Orrian or Awakened, or Ancient. What is controlling them would be the lich that raised them, once the lich is gone, they have control over themselves.
Joko was not killed, but severely weakened, so much that he lost energy to control his Undead Army, and therefore they rebelled. You are taking the Undead Dragon theory too far, so far that it's making what I said look more implausible.
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