I. Define 'god'.
Gods, in Guild Wars, are not all powerful. Gods are not all-knowing. Gods are imperfect beings, with limited scary divine power.
Sure, being able to call down divine judgement from the heavens, smiting one's enemies and creating worlds is nice and all, but with the proper tools and knowledge, mankind could probably do it himself, if not better.
It's easy to impress an ignorant mob with shiny 'divine powers', and it's almost as easy to convince them that you are an all powerful god, while you are nothing more than some guy floating on a couple of clouds who's making one hell of a light show with a bunch of smoke an mirrors. (Looong sentance.)
The gods have limited power and influence. Balthazar cannot simply snap his fingers and make the shadow army and Menzies go away. No, he needs you, a mortal hobo, to save his butt. Same with Grenth. He can't even defend his own freaking dimension without you.
GW Gods are powerful, but they are not as powerful as in realworld religion. (Not even Graeco-Roman mythos.)
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"Abaddon is dead. And I assure you, Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did.
Grenth already has some experience in getting rid of annoying gods (Dhuum), so it is fair to assume that Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon and distribute his power among the other gods. The other gods disagreed and chose to lock Abaddon away.
The point of this is to show that the gods do not always agree. The gods don't always see eye to eye, and the gods are not perfect.
The gods should have known that locking away Abaddon in the realm of Torment could not possibly have been a good solution.
GW gods are not all knowing, they suffer from human flaws, and are st00pid.
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"They say that ours was the first, but that the gods created other worlds after the Exodus."
'The gods' refers to the known pantheon. 'Our world' refers to Tyria, and according to Kenan, it was the first world the known pantheon created. This does not mean that Tyria was the first world ever created.
I know this how? Quite simple. The pantheon summoned a race of beings to Tyria. An established race, which adhered to an elaborate culture etc. etc. and so forth. Point being, the forgotten were created somewhere else, and thus there has to be atleast one more planet before Tyria. Possibly many more. Millions more, perhaps.
Sooo.. the Forgotten are not a race created by the known pantheon. The gods were still experimenting with creating life and just creating all sorts of crap just for the hell of it. Giganticus Lupicus? Died of mass extinction due to bad management. Titans? Sent to the Foundry of Failed Creations because, well, they failed. (I'm sure the gods had certain criteria in order to label a creature as 'failed'.)
My point is, is that the gods were unable to fabricate this race of Serpents by themselves, so they summoned them from elsewhere, perhaps from worlds created by their predecessors.
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"And so by mortal hands did a new immortal enter creation.
[...]
Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed."
A god in GW is part of a group of beings classified as immortals; the ruling class of the Mists. The power of an immortal can not be destroyed, but an immortal can be destroyed. The logical conclusion, therefor, is that gods are nothing more than shells wielding certain divine powers within the mists.
What should also be noted is that there is most likely a finite number of titles, or divine powers. Which is why we don't have multiple gods of war fighting for the title. One could argue that Dhuum and Grenth are both gods of Death, but you have to realize that Dhuum no longer is god of Death, and Grenth is. Dhuum is a fallen god, he no longer holds sway over the souls of the dead, and he has very little control over what happens in his former domain. Whatever Grenth was before becoming a true god, he managed to ursurp Dhuum's power, and made it his own (though Dhuum still has some strength left. Which is arguably why Grenth can never fully control the Underworld.)
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"I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he maybe supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor."
There were other gods before Abaddon. Atleast three, according to the Apostate; Abaddon's unnamed predecessor, and atleast one unnamed god.
We know for a fact that Grenth has overthrown Dhuum as god of Death.
We know for a fact that Menzies is fighting with Balthazar for control of the Fissure of Woe, and ulimately, Balthazar's power.
We know for a fact that the Great Dwarf fought with the Great Destroyer. (Though it could be argued that this was infact a fight between Balthazar and Menzies.)
These gods, these immortals, are in constant conflict with one another, fighting for control, fighting for eachother's power. Though the ruling gods most likely realised that by working together, they would have greater chance of staying in power, which is why the formed the pantheon.
Some gods are more powerful than others, as it should be noted that it took the entire Pantheon, five gods, to take down Abaddon, a single god.
Menzies is Balthazar's half brother. He is referd to as the Lord of Destruction, and not as God of Destruction. He is not a full god, but a minor deity. (Most likely the same as Grenth was before he overthrew Dhuum) Being the half brother of Balthazar means that both have one parent in common. That means that Menzies is the child of one immortal, or of one of the other deities inside the mists that prey upon their power, as is Balthazar, and another being unrelated to Balthazar. Balthazar became a god, Menzies didn't. Family feud.
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and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.
There has been much debate lately about a phenomenon called 'pulling a Kormir'. The consensus is that any mortal can ursurp a god if he or she has the will and strength to do so. However, the manuscripts of Kormir are somewhat misleading. They state that Kormir made a choice only a mortal could make and then she just became a god. However, in the Gate of Madness mission, the avatars of the gods give Kormir a 'gift' which only a mortal can use. This 'gift' is what presented Kormir the oppertunity to become a god, not just her status as a mortal being. So the criteria of pulling of a Kormir is not simply 'be a mortal and kick a god's arse.' It involves something more, someting related to the ruling powers of the mists, probably. Though I don't have a clue what this 'gift' could be.
The gods lie. A lot.
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"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here."
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"We are the keepers of Abaddon. Our Task has been complicated of late by the aid the dark god has received from the fallen god, Dhuum, as well as Balthazar's half brother Menzies."
The Reaper, and thus Grenth, lied.
The Exodus of the gods is a lie. They never left Tyria. They're watching you.
Avatars are still present all across the world. The gods plea for your help to protect their domains. The gods even say they've been watching your fight with Abaddon. They're still watching Tyria, but they are unable or unwilling to act directly or manifest themselves on Tyria. (Maybe they're busy, maybe they're losing their power, maybe they're afraid of being exposed as a bunch of fakes by silly heretics on online game forums.)
The gods lied to us about the Crystal Desert, Nightfall, Abaddon and their origins. Why should we believe a word they say?
The scriptures of the gods are bullocks aswell. I mean, look at them:
Melandru: Some tribe doesn't respect nature, melandru gets pissed, tribe gets pissed at melandru, melandru then turns the tribe into a bunch of trees. Moral of the story; don't litter in the park/forest.
Balthazar: An army is tired of fighting and they feel their tactics are ineffective against their opponent. Balthazar comes along, he shows them some fireworks, sets theirs swords on fire, etc. and teaches them that the best way to win a battle is to gloriously run into the fray, laughing at the face of death as you go. Moral of the story; courage and honor, etc.
Lyssa: Some hobo walks into a town, but everyone tells her to gtfo. Some girl helps the hobo out, and the hobo reveals herself as the godess Lyssa. Moral of the story: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Dwayna: People die and get injured during a battle. Dwayna appears and heals everyone. Moral of the story: Care for the weak and wounded or you're going to rot in the underworld.
Grenth: Girl gets kicked out of town. She wants to kill everyone, or smething similar. She asks who can help her take revenge, and grenth tells her she can use the animated corpses of the dead to kill everything. Moral of the story: Desecrating someone's grave and/or corpse in order to animate it into your undead army of zombies, which you then you use to kill and rampage across the land is fine, aslong as you do it in Grenth's name.
The manuscripts are nothing more than scary stories that scare you into obiding the rules. They're propaganda, handed out to the first rulers of mankind, to help them subdue to populace.
And yes, Grenth is a freak.
II. Miscelanious divine specu.. truth. Yes. Quite.
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But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world. They were not serpent nor beast. They were neither plant nor stone. These creatures had no chitinous hide to protect themselves. They had no claws to tear flesh. They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.
Why on earth did the gods create mankind? It makes no sense. Everyone was happy, everyone was getting along nicely, there was balance and so forth. Then the gods come along, and they create some random race which is, well, let's be honest here, evil. And mankind ruined everything within centuries of their creation. Why on god's green earth would the gods create a creature that has one thing above all, on his mind? (Desire for control.)
It. makes. no. sense.
I originally thought that Dwayna created mankind, because she is the godess of life, but mankind is more warlike than any other race on Tyria, and dwayna isn't retarded. Only a being of great evil or stupidity would create a race like mankind.
Likely candidates:
- Abaddon
- One of Abbadon's predecessors
- Dhuum
- One of the Old Gods' predecessors
Reasons for creation of man are... A) Pissing off the pantheon by creating chaos and so forth. B) Experiment gone horribly wrong. C) I'll give a more lengthy explanation below.
C) I refer back to the act of pulling a Kormir. Any mortal race can, in theory, become a god. However, mankind, more than any race, has the desire and drive to become one. Could mankind have been created with exactly this purpose in mind?
More things that make me wonder:
The act of the exodus itself has always greatly puzzled me. We have this race of gods, who created a world in perfect balance, who mess it up by creating humans, then granting the gift of magic, and then they decide that their work is done here, and leave. Why the hell did they leave? Mankind was going to destroy the world. Their work was not done at all.
The act of granting magic to the mortal races. Ok, once more we first have a wonderful world, in which everyone is happy. Then the gods create humanity. Humanity pisses everyone and everything off by conquering Tyria, and butchering the local critters. Then, for one reason or another, Abaddon grants magic to all the races of the world. The result was that for the first time in over a 200 years, every last race on the face of the planet had a fighting chance against mankind, and more or less joined forces and kicked the collective as of mankind. As a result, mankind was almost wiped out, but the gods decided that we should be spared. What the hell? The mortal races of Tyria were going to fix the balance and all that stuff by getting rid of the humans. Why did the gods stop the magic when Doric yelled imba? Did they have some kind of 'divine plan' for mankind?
I'm not eveng oing to start about the seer & mursaat and their allegiances.
End.|||Heh...I like how you summed all that up. Humans are evil, humans screwed the whole thing up.
That is funny though..Gods create mankind, hand out some magic here and there, mankind nearly dies, and then poor old Dwayna and her overly kind heart spare the humans. I swear if anyone persuaded the other gods to spare mankind it had to be Dwayna. She's overly loving and affectionate of..Every species.
I think anyway..Yes...That would mean the abominations created by Abaddon and even the Afflicted. Creepy thought, huh?|||Good write up. Might it also be possible that humans birthed themselves onto Tyria, rather than being created? As in, they came from somewhere else, or evolved naturally on Tyria.
Also, in my Odran Code paper, I suggested that the real reason the gods left is because they were afraid of how powerful mortals could become, and knew that their position would eventually be threatened by races like the Mursaat who find out about their secrets.|||mmm if the gods aren't omniscient it doesn't make sense to assume they are too smart to create mankind. maybe they were just dumb and didn't forsee the consequences:
here is dwayna's plan for humanity:
Step 1: Create Humans
Step 2: Humans create underpants.
Step 3: ....
Step 4: PROFIT!|||Hmmm, given human nature I would also poke Balthazar as a possible daddy of humanity. He never strikes me as the brightest match in the book (well he is actually...his eyes are on fire)|||I would also think of Balthazar because of how greedy humans in general can be. Greed brings about war and war, for Balthazar, is good for business.|||Some corrections though, despite the good write up:
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Grenth already has some experience in getting rid of annoying gods (Dhuum), so it is fair to assume that Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon and distribute his power among the other gods. The other gods disagreed and chose to lock Abaddon away.
There is no indication as far as I know, that Grenth would have wanted to destroy Abaddon. In fact, before you face Abaddon, it seems that the gods agree on what must be done. Grenth must have had his own reasons for taking Dhuum's mantle, but you jump to conclusions if you assume Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon. I simply do not see any evidence for this.
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Titans? Sent to the Foundry of Failed Creations because, well, they failed.
Actually the titans were born from the Foundry. It is still unknown if the Foundry was named after the titans.
From the scribe:
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In the Foundry of Failed Creations, your party of adventurers will face enemies with an all-too-familiar past. It is here that the great Titans were created by demonic forces within the Domain of Anguish. Were it not for this foundry, the Charr never would have attacked the human kingdoms of Tyria. Ascalon's fields would not have been scorched and destroyed by the Searing. Orr, the legendary home of the Five Gods, would have never sunk into the sea. Indeed, the Flame Seeker Prophecies could never have came to pass were it not for the twisted minds that created the horrific and sadistic false gods known as the Titans.
Walking into the birthplace of foes that have made life in Tyria a constant struggle is a truly humbling and yet enraging experience. However, do not give in to your desire to carelessly exact revenge, or you very well could become be the next victim in their catastrophic wake of carnage and destruction. Use your past experiences with these foes to your advantage, for what you learned in the past can and will save you now.|||Do we really know if the gods were in agreement? All we know is that their avatars were. For all we know, the gods are off somewhere completely unaware of what was going on. The Avatars seem more like Regents or Viziers than actual channels of the gods. Think about it. Who is defending the UW? The Reapers and us, who is defending the Fissue, the Eternals and us. It really seems that the gods don't exist, or at least, aren't around at all. When Abaddon breaks lose, we are the one's who have to clean it up. Even Menzies and Dhuum are never seen, only their armies. So how much influence do the various gods actually have?
Are they still alive? Probably. But they seem to be very recluse. Agreement among avatars is hardly what I would call agreement among gods. Assuming they are speaking directly from the gods, we don't know the debates the gods had to reach that concensus.|||I assume that the avatars are just the voices of the gods, and nothing more. When the gods/avatars reach an agreement, and all the god shrines are activated, you receive power from all of the gods. I assume that these avatars would not possess such powers themselves. To me this is clear evidence that the power of the god they represent flows through them, and that they are directly connected to their gods.
Of course one might easily argue the opposite. But I would not discard the god's influence too quickly without some clear evidence.
You do make a strong point regarding the Underworld however Antonius. One has to wonder where Grenth's army is.|||Quote:
Might it also be possible that humans birthed themselves onto Tyria, rather than being created? As in, they came from somewhere else, or evolved naturally on Tyria.
In less than 2000 years? I doubt it.
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Hmmm, given human nature I would also poke Balthazar as a possible daddy of humanity. He never strikes me as the brightest match in the book (well he is actually...his eyes are on fire)
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I would also think of Balthazar because of how greedy humans in general can be. Greed brings about war and war, for Balthazar, is good for business.
Yes, Balthazar is a hotheaded idiot, but would he really create something like mankind because he was bored? Ok, maybe he wanted to have more wars, and balance and harmony wasn't his thing. But still, you'd think the other gods would get very, very pissed off at Balthazar. About as pissed off as they were at Abaddon when he gave magic to the mortals.
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here is dwayna's plan for humanity:
Step 1: Create Humans
Step 2: Humans create underpants.
Step 3: ....
Step 4: PROFIT!
You watch too much Southpark, or you spend way too much time on 4chan. :p
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Actually the titans were born from the Foundry. It is still unknown if the Foundry was named after the titans.
Oh. Heh, always figured the titans were very very bad first attempts at creating life by the gods. Kinda like a kid who gets his first crayons and attempts to create fine art.
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There is no indication as far as I know, that Grenth would have wanted to destroy Abaddon. In fact, before you face Abaddon, it seems that the gods agree on what must be done. Grenth must have had his own reasons for taking Dhuum's mantle, but you jump to conclusions if you assume Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon. I simply do not see any evidence for this.
Grenth will not make the same mistake the other gods made. As what would you interpret this, then?
I was refering to the first time the gods fought Abaddon. The gods decided that Abaddon needed to be locked away, eventhough they could have known that Abaddon could not stay in the RoT forever. Grenth, of all people, knew this for sure, and protested and desired a more permanent solution.
The second time around he got his way. The gods or avatars or whatnot, decided that we, the heroes, should be aided in destroying Abaddon. So it came to pass, and Grenth got his way.
Yes, it's speculation on my part. But most of my posts is usally nothing more. :p
I believe that the avatars of the gods have atleast some autonomy. Some probably even have their own personalities. However, they are ultimately bound to their patron deity, and they are bound to do his or her bidding, above all else. I don't think that an event as major as Abaddon rising would be handled by nothing but a few lowly avatars, while the gods themselves were off drinking tequila on some far-off divine beach-resort. Because the rise of Abaddon would not only endanger Tyria, it would endanger the gods themselves, so they would have to take action.
However, as I've said before, the gods are not omnipotent, and cannot be everywhere at once, and they do not know everything that's happening. They are imperfect beings, presenting themselves as gods, and they need help in making people believe they are gods, which is where the avatars come in.
Avatars create the illusion that the gods are still with you, that the gods care about what happens on your world, eventhough the gods themselves have left ages ago and will never return. They are divine sockpuppets, and mankind is the group of four year olds that's watching the show.
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Do we really know if the gods were in agreement? All we know is that their avatars were. For all we know, the gods are off somewhere completely unaware of what was going on. The Avatars seem more like Regents or Viziers than actual channels of the gods. Think about it. Who is defending the UW? The Reapers and us, who is defending the Fissue, the Eternals and us. It really seems that the gods don't exist, or at least, aren't around at all. When Abaddon breaks lose, we are the one's who have to clean it up. Even Menzies and Dhuum are never seen, only their armies. So how much influence do the various gods actually have?
My point exactly.
These beings model themselves as all powerful gods, yet they are never even seen doing anything worthwhile. Their home domains are being invaded, and they don't even care enough to show themselves. For all we know, these gods could be nothing more than just a bunch really really big avatars (or just their leaders.), or just another group of mist-spawned daemons.
I refer back to the scriptures of the gods. These things are like the bible of Tyria. They are the foundation of worship of the old gods. But how on earth do we even know these events actually really happened? I mean look at them: Anonymous tribe goes into a forest, and Melandru forces them into taking good care of nature. Anonymous army is tired of battle, and Balthazar inspires them to fight to the death for pie and glory. Anonymous girl takes care of homeless woman when no-one else will. All of these scriptures are about teaching you a lesson, all these scriptures are about some random anonymous human who comes into contact with a god and learns this great wisdom. All of these scriptures are fairy tales.
Infact, the only scriptures that even have a historical basis are those of Dwayna, but the dates are screwed up, and they imply that Doric was a man who became around 150-200 years old.
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