Mursaat and Glint
We all know the theory that supposedly the Mursaat ascended into the "divine" beings they are now. There's a lot to support this claim, which I won't discuss in length here. What I find interesting though is that if the Mursaat ascended in the Crystal Desert, they would have come in contact with Glint. After all, those who ascend are granted an audience with her. I think this explains how the Mursaat came to know about the Flameseeker prophecies. Either she told them about the prophecies and their role in it, or they simply found out by reading her thoughts.
I know many disagree on this, but I firmly believe the Tarnished Coast has much to do with the Mursaat, including Rata Sum. Because I believe so, I was surprised to see this:
This mural is probably not asuran, because the creature is humanoid and because the style is very different. I think we may very well be looking at the "original" Mursaat, before they ascended. We see a sort of headgear, with several long "wings" on it. If this was already part of their culture, it's logical they would continue to use it in a different fashion (like many, I believe the Mursaat wings are in fact a "device" rather than being an actual part of their body). And then a similar thing between the Mursaat and the creature on the mural: they both wear items on 3 distinct places. Something around the neck and shoulders, the sort of jagged lower arm protection, and the lower body garments.
I think the dragon resembles Glint greatly. The burning breath is pretty obvious, and although we never see Glint actually use it, her skills do confirm it. I know that using the "teeth" as a similarity seems ridiculous, but I've compared the teeth of almost every dragon-like creature in Tyria, and they aren't as distinct in size and shape. These actually look alike. Also, on the mural the spikes on the head of the dragon are much more straight, as if to clearly show the difference from the sort of "swirly" things below the mouth. The same is with Glint, who has real spikes on her head, and a beard her mouth.
I don't know, there has always been this connection between Glint and the Mursaat. She definately seems to know alot about them, and they have a definite connection through the flameseeker prophecies and ascension. Perhaps they have a past together we don't know about, and is only hinted at.
Any thoughts?|||That mural is found in the Central Transfer Chamber. Might be hard to see in the image:
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As such, it is more likely to depict Primordus and an asura with a funky hairstyle/hat. After all, among the asura, hats show importance.|||Quote:
This mural is probably not asuran, because the creature is humanoid
Asura fit the definition of humanoid: two arms, two legs, one head, etc. The term "humanoid" is broad and vague, and can be used with creatures that vary from human norms to a large extent.
Look at the mural figure again. Note the extreme width of the mouth, the large size of the eyes, and the flattened nose that rises directly into the forehead without sign of a bridge. Note the elongated blob where the ear should be. This could easily be a representation of an asura.
The existence of gloves, flowing garment on the lower body, and neck ornament are nowhere near being unique to the mursaat. You could just as easily make the same comparisons with, say, a ritualist. The feathers on the mural figure look more like part of a headdress than mursaat-like appendages attached to the back.
The case for associating the humanoid figure in the mural with the mursaat looks pretty weak to me.|||About the mural, it could very well be asuran. I admit, the association is rather weak. I'll leave it at that. But perhaps there are more clues that indicate the Tarnished Coast may be more related to the Mursaat than we think.
I've read some threads in the past that theorized that the Wizard's Tower in Kessex Peak and the one in pre-Searing Ascalon might be linked to the Mursaat (I think it might have been Quintus). The tower in Kessex peak is located in Kryta, controlled by the White Mantle, and is being investigated by Galrath and during the War in Kryta by Justiciar Marron. The White Mantle are obviously interested in it. The tower near Foible's Fair is guarded by an enchanted, who have always been linked to the Mursaat. We also know from tents in Ascalon city that the White Mantle are present in Ascalon. The following clues may strengthen this theory, again only if we assume for a moment the Tarnished Coast is heavily linked to the Mursaat:
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Ever noticed this remarkable similarity? Both towers are strange because they are chained to the ground, as if to prevent them from flying off. The tower in Kessex peak is already doing so. The stones around the tower float exactly the same way as those in Arbor Bay. This strange similarity between the stones of the tower and the stones found in the Tarnished Coast can be explained when both can be linked to the same cause (on a sidenote, Mursaat evidently have knowledge about "floating" since they all hover above the ground, and even their jade counterparts are made of floating pieces of jade).
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Some have theorized that not only the tower near Foible's Fair isn't Ascalonian, but the building in Ashford Abbey isn't either. The golden eagle can be found all around the Tarnished Coast on several structures. I don't think they're asuran, since they adhere to the Eternal Alchemy and are not known to revere animals in this way. As for the abbey, it's unlike any other building in Ascalon. Both "eagles" are quite different, but the inspiration for them could be the same.|||Quote:
The tower in Kessex peak is located in Kryta, controlled by the White Mantle, and is being investigated by Galrath and during the War in Kryta by Justiciar Marron. The White Mantle are obviously interested in it. The tower near Foible's Fair is guarded by an enchanted, who have always been linked to the Mursaat. We also know from tents in Ascalon city that the White Mantle are present in Ascalon.
I have to go soon so I'll only comment on this:
1) The White Mantle were formed after the Searing. We don't know why there are WM flags in the Ascalon Academy, but those hard-to-find flags contradict lore. There is no WM presence in Ascalon outside of the Ambassador, who doesn't go that far south to our knowledge.
2) Galrath may not have been part of the WM, since only the Lionguard mention him (one having sparred with Galrath). Though that's not certain either way, the armor could of been stolen and he was merely a man gone rogue.
3) the WM don't have control over the tower, if that's what you meant when you said they had control over "it."
4) Marron is interested in artifacts and the tower has these, that's his only interest. We don't know why Galrath was interested.
I'll comment on the rest of the post later.|||Quote:
1) The White Mantle were formed after the Searing. We don't know why there are WM flags in the Ascalon Academy, but those hard-to-find flags contradict lore. There is no WM presence in Ascalon outside of the Ambassador, who doesn't go that far south to our knowledge.
It's true the White Mantle became a large religious order during the Krytan war against the Charr, but there is no reason the order couldn't have sent a delegation in its early stages. In the manuscripts it's uncertain how much time has passed between Saul reaching the Mursaat city and eventually returning to Kryta. There could have been a small number of members already active, without anyone knowing. There's absolutely no proof for this, but it doesn't contradict the manuscripts, and therefore it doesn't contradict lore. But the banners and tents are there, and there's no way around it.
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2) Galrath may not have been part of the WM, since only the Lionguard mention him (one having sparred with Galrath). Though that's not certain either way, the armor could of been stolen and he was merely a man gone rogue.
I highly doubt that, for several reasons. First, it's highly unlikely he stole the armor, because it is the same armor used by Hablion. We must therefore assume Galrath's armor represents the same rank as Hablion's armor, because there is no reason to assume otherwise. I don't exactly see someone like Hablion being ambushed by a bunch of bandits. Second, Kryta is heavily controlled by the White Mantle, a militaristic religious order. I don't think a handful of bandits could have gone far after either killing a leader of their order and then taking the armor, or simply by stealing it. Third, there's another mention of Galrath by Firstwatch Sergio. He says many of the Lionguard were still loyal to him. I don't think a mere bandit, or even an outsider, could have gathered a following from the Lionguard. He was obviously an influential member of the White Mantle.
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3) the WM don't have control over the tower, if that's what you meant when you said they had control over "it."
I actually meant they control Kryta
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4) Marron is interested in artifacts and the tower has these, that's his only interest. We don't know why Galrath was interested.
Firstwatch Sergio - "Galrath must be stopped! If he gains whatever secrets are locked within the Wizard's Tower, gods be merciful."
It's obvious he's interested in the tower's arcane secrets. I hardly think Galrath went to the Wizard's Tower to gaze at its beauty. When you have a mysterious castle floating in mid-air called the "Wizard's Tower", I think most, if not all people want to find out how.|||Now that I have time (my class was canceled, I find out after rushing over there thinking I'd be late):
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The following clues may strengthen this theory, again only if we assume for a moment the Tarnished Coast is heavily linked to the Mursaat:
Never assume something to provide "evidence"
As to the stones: I'll have to find it (Leon would know what I'm talking about, as he used that information for research on the riders), but there was a video before EN's release which explained the floating stones: The magic from the Cataclysm swept into the Tarnished Coast and the magical concentration is the cause for the Tarnished Coasts' floating rocks. They have nothing to do with the mursaat, even if the ruins are from the mursaat.
I don't see how floating rocks can't "float the same way" anyways.
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Some have theorized that not only the tower near Foible's Fair isn't Ascalonian, but the building in Ashford Abbey isn't either. The golden eagle can be found all around the Tarnished Coast on several structures. I don't think they're asuran, since they adhere to the Eternal Alchemy and are not known to revere animals in this way. As for the abbey, it's unlike any other building in Ascalon. Both "eagles" are quite different, but the inspiration for them could be the same.
You say the building in Ashford Abbey isn't Ascalonian as if it were a fact. That's merely your speculation - we know nothing of it except its design.
Also, the motifs on the building are closer to the Eye of the North's motifs (as is the building as a whole, in fact).
As for the TC's motifs: Again, you should check the CTC. If they are not there (and they are), then you can say they're not asuran. Don't try to associate these things, most of which are more than not leftovers from Utopia as most of the Tarnished Coast is, through the lore information but rather their location.
The structures in the CTC and Tarnished Coast are almost completely the same, in fact. You have the towers, the "generators", the walls, everything is shared between the two and they are in the place which cannot be asuran (the pyramid structure in Arbor Bay). You cannot say "this is/is not asuran" due to this.
In my opinion, based on this, the most likely possibility is that the structures in the Tarnished Coast are from an asuran expedition from long ago - perhaps headed by Vlox, which I believe was said to be an asuran explorer and Vlox's Falls and Vloxen Excavations were named after him; don't think there was a date given for him (I can't find it, or the video I mentioned prior, so they probably come from the same thing).
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It's true the White Mantle became a large religious order during the Krytan war against the Charr, but there is no reason the order couldn't have sent a delegation in its early stages. In the manuscripts it's uncertain how much time has passed between Saul reaching the Mursaat city and eventually returning to Kryta. There could have been a small number of members already active, without anyone knowing. There's absolutely no proof for this, but it doesn't contradict the manuscripts, and therefore it doesn't contradict lore. But the banners and tents are there, and there's no way around it.
Saul formed the White Mantle after returning to Kryta, which was during the charr invasion, which after the Searing.
Sometimes, things were put in without a direct lore meaning. For Prophecies at least.
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I highly doubt that, for several reasons. First, it's highly unlikely he stole the armor, because it is the same armor used by Hablion. We must therefore assume Galrath's armor represents the same rank as Hablion's armor, because there is no reason to assume otherwise. I don't exactly see someone like Hablion being ambushed by a bunch of bandits. Second, Kryta is heavily controlled by the White Mantle, a militaristic religious order. I don't think a handful of bandits could have gone far after either killing a leader of their order and then taking the armor, or simply by stealing it. Third, there's another mention of Galrath by Firstwatch Sergio. He says many of the Lionguard were still loyal to him. I don't think a mere bandit, or even an outsider, could have gathered a following from the Lionguard. He was obviously an influential member of the White Mantle.
Firstwatch Sergio - "Galrath must be stopped! If he gains whatever secrets are locked within the Wizard's Tower, gods be merciful."
It's obvious he's interested in the tower's arcane secrets. I hardly think Galrath went to the Wizard's Tower to gaze at its beauty. When you have a mysterious castle floating in mid-air called the "Wizard's Tower", I think most, if not all people want to find out how.
Hablion is a Justiciar. He has a unique model and is a unique individual but his rank is not unique.
As to the simple idea Galrath was a bandit, it would be more like "someone becoming a bandit." It was a possibility for why he wouldn't be a White Mantle despite the armor. That is, he was of the Lionguard, went rogue, stole WM armor, made it to the Wizard's Tower.
As to the interest in the tower's secrets... I never said otherwise, but what are those secrets? What holds those secrets? And so forth. Marron is after artifacts, is that all the tower holds? Tomes and artifacts? Is there a portal to the Mists there? Does anyone even know?|||Quote:
Never assume something to provide "evidence"
I never speak of "evidence", only of hints and clues. To me, very little of lore is an actual fact.
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As to the stones: I'll have to find it (Leon would know what I'm talking about, as he used that information for research on the riders), but there was a video before EN's release which explained the floating stones: The magic from the Cataclysm swept into the Tarnished Coast and the magical concentration is the cause for the Tarnished Coasts' floating rocks. They have nothing to do with the mursaat, even if the ruins are from the mursaat.
Could you provide me with the source? Not that I don't trust you, I just like to see it for myself
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You say the building in Ashford Abbey isn't Ascalonian as if it were a fact.
No, I said that some have theorized the building isn't Ascalonian; I never posed it as a fact.
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The structures in the CTC and Tarnished Coast are almost completely the same, in fact. You have the towers, the "generators", the walls, everything is shared between the two and they are in the place which cannot be asuran (the pyramid structure in Arbor Bay). You cannot say "this is/is not asuran" due to this.
Here's how you think: you assume everything in the CTC is asuran-made. Therefore, every identical structure outside the CTC is also asuran. I say the eagle in the TC could be Mursaat, you say it's asuran because it can be found in the CTC. The problem is that none of us know just how much of the structures we find are asuran. We know for a fact that the asura built their structures on earlier ruins and modified them. So there's absolutely no way for you to know what's asuran and what's not. So it doesn't matter what you find in the CTC, it's not a valid argument against my premise.
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Saul formed the White Mantle after returning to Kryta, which was during the charr invasion, which after the Searing.
Agreed. However, my question is: Could there have been an earlier group of White Mantle before Saul returned to Kryta and "officialy" founded the order? We have to remember that it isn't Saul who created the White Mantle, in reality it was the Mursaat. The golden armor, the teachings of the order, the worship of the Unseen, ... All of these things that are fundamental to the White Mantle as an order originated from the Mursaat. So I think it's fairly possible for the Mursaat to have already sent a delegation of some sort to Ascalon, with or without the knowledge of Saul. Remember now, the Mantle were created by the Mursaat for their own personal gain. They knew their very existence was threatened by the Flameseeker, so I don't think they would have waited until after the Searing to act. My guess is they would have acted as quickly as possible.
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Hablion is a Justiciar. He has a unique model and is a unique individual but his rank is not unique.
Prove to me his model was meant to be unique. There's no proof for that, it's an assumption. When we find another NPC using the same model, it's more logical to say they have something in common than not. Besides, your explanation that Galrath might have stolen the armor would then be invalid: if Hablion's model (and therefore his armor) were unique, Galrath couldn't possibly have stolen his armor from anybody else, let alone from Hablion.
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As to the interest in the tower's secrets... I never said otherwise, but what are those secrets? What holds those secrets? And so forth. Marron is after artifacts, is that all the tower holds? Tomes and artifacts? Is there a portal to the Mists there? Does anyone even know?
I don't think it's relevant at this point to know exactly what secrets they're looking for. I only pointed out that the Towers have certain features that could be linked to the Mursaat. When you combine that with high-ranking mantle trying to uncover artifacts or arcane secrets, I think there's something more.
Also, to make things more complex I thought I'd post this:
Spoiler
I don't know if it's really anything meaningful, but I thought it was quite strange because this isn't a re-use of a model. They're not the same, and therefore extremely similar. Why make an almost exact copy of it? And despite the title on the picture, I won't actually go so far as to say the so called "druid spires" are Mursaat.
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I never speak of "evidence", only of hints and clues. To me, very little of lore is an actual fact.
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Could you provide me with the source? Not that I don't trust you, I just like to see it for myself
Don't know where it's located at, tried looking for it. Leon's little merging of the subforums and moving of topics has made it near impossible for me to find it now. It was in a thread in the EN sub-forum. Now idk.
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Hints and clues are even looser. And lore is fact until implied otherwise.
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No, I said that some have theorized the building isn't Ascalonian; I never posed it as a fact.
Misread it, didn't see the "not only."
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Here's how you think: you assume everything in the CTC is asuran-made. Therefore, every identical structure outside the CTC is also asuran. I say the eagle in the TC could be Mursaat, you say it's asuran because it can be found in the CTC. The problem is that none of us know just how much of the structures we find are asuran. We know for a fact that the asura built their structures on earlier ruins and modified them. So there's absolutely no way for you to know what's asuran and what's not. So it doesn't matter what you find in the CTC, it's not a valid argument against my premise.
Wrong, here's how I think:
Everything in the CTC has been under asuran control for a long time, as it is their central hub (something unlikely to have recently occurred). The structures are shared with places which are unlikely or downright impossible to be modern asuran, and shares similarities with one of the five most commonly found architecture of the Depths of Tyria. Therefore, I believe that 1) there is no original asuran structures and those they inhabit are from the same origin which is spread throughout Tyria and predate humanity, but only the things which are used to provide support for them being mursaat based are connected directly to the asuran (the golden filigree). Or 2) the asuran are a lot older than we know (not unlikely since we know next to nothing of their history) and they were once a very widespread underground race (also possible since the Destroyers are said to have destroyed underground civilizations, not the one asuran civilization that was forced aboveground).
The CTC is never said to have non-asuran structures, which is why it can be used against stating that those like structures in the TC are not non-asuran. Is it foolproof? No. But it's far more likely than it being mursaat, which there is no direct evidence for.
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Agreed. However, my question is: Could there have been an earlier group of White Mantle before Saul returned to Kryta and "officialy" founded the order?
Given all knowledge we have: No.
Doesn't mean it is impossible, but rather that it would be a mere hypothesis and hypotheses are not good evidence to create another idea. You're going from not good to worse.
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Prove to me his model was meant to be unique. There's no proof for that, it's an assumption. When we find another NPC using the same model, it's more logical to say they have something in common than not. Besides, your explanation that Galrath might have stolen the armor would then be invalid: if Hablion's model (and therefore his armor) were unique, Galrath couldn't possibly have stolen his armor from anybody else, let alone from Hablion.
Unique in use, not in lore. There's a difference. Hablion and Galrath are the only ones who use that model, therefore it is unique.
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Also, to make things more complex I thought I'd post this:
Spoiler
I don't know if it's really anything meaningful, but I thought it was quite strange because this isn't a re-use of a model. They're not the same, and therefore extremely similar. Why make an almost exact copy of it? And despite the title on the picture, I won't actually go so far as to say the so called "druid spires" are Mursaat.
Known, in fact, if you look at the bottom you can see the same symbols (now known to be of the Krytan alphabet, btw). However, the symbols probably mean little as when they were made, they were just filler runes, according to Matthew Medina (Anet's language expert/maker). The ones in Kryta are... Krytan. The tree-like spires around the Wizard's Folly, seeing how the runes are well hidden, were probably used for the texture and the runes hold no significance there.
We in fact see mursaat runes as well, used near the Eye of Janthir (around the pedestal where it is kept). So it is unlikely the mursaat would use Krytan runes.
I think I'll start calling you Quintus 2.0 since you're trying to connect everything to the mursaat when there's absolutely no connection there.|||Quote:
Could you provide me with the source? Not that I don't trust you, I just like to see it for myself
I think it was taken down. I think the link was in this post and following it only leads to a page without it. Checking the videos tab also doesn't bring up the video Konig is talking about. So if it was there, it no longer is, as far as I can tell.
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Don't know where it's located at, tried looking for it. Leon's little merging of the subforums and moving of topics has made it near impossible for me to find it now. It was in a thread in the EN sub-forum. Now idk.
It was never easy to locate to begin with as it was a post within a much larger thread, if I remember correctly.
Also, my reworking of the Archives is just as streamlined as it was previously. Central still links to each post that contains the subforums' archives, which should have contained the thread that had that link. (Key word, should have. I tried skimming over each section for the pertinent threads, and that should have been one of them...)
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