Just a few things that have been rattling around in my brain for a while... apologies if this has been brought up in other threads, Search didn't turn anything up and I'm not a frequent visitor to the Lore Forum.
I've always been bugged by the Titan quest "The Titan Source". When the Titan quests first came out people thought that we might finally discover the true nature of the Titans, especially given the name of the last quest, but all The Titan Source involves is a major boss fight in a lake of goo out in the middle of nowhere, with no lore explanation whatsoever (beyond "the rogue Titans must be stopped before they destroy Tyria" thing). Very unsatisfying.
Of course, when Nightfall (and DoA) came out we learned about the Foundry of Failed Creations and its link to Tyria through the Door of Khomalie, which wraps things up nicely regarding the origin of the Titans. Except for Dragon's Gullet, which is still an unexplained "source of power and renewed strength" (as Glint called it) for the Titans.
Fast forward once again to Eye of the North, and we meet the Destroyers. Very familiar looking- elemental beings made of earth and fire, worshipped by the Charr as gods and spreading across Tyria as a mindless force of destruction. Of course, there are some differences- the Titans form themselves out of whatever elemental material is handy (fire just happens to be one of the more common forms), and are actually sentient and can communicate with other beings, while the Destroyers are a hive mind controlled by the Great Destroyer. Still, there are some definite similarities.
Finally, we have The Movement of the World, which unveils Primordus as the mastermind behind the Destroyer menace. An ancient sleeping dragon whose form is entombed suspiciously close to Dragon's Gullet, underneath the Central Transfer Chamber...
It doesn't take a major leap of logic to deduce that Dragon's Gullet was probably named for Primordus, even though Primordus himself was long-forgotten by history- similar to how the name Abaddon's Mouth persisted even though all mention of Abaddon himself was erased from historical records by the gods.
But, could there be a deeper connection here? Could the Titans been able to draw on Primordus's power (or vice versa, Primordus intentionally using his powers of animation to bolster the faltering Titans) in that place, explaining Glint's comment about Dragon's Gullet being a place of power for them? Could the connection go even deeper, with Primordus playing a hand in their original creation, accounting for their strong resemblance to the Destroyers?
That latter theory might not have much support, given that we already know a good deal about the Titans' origin from the Realm of Torment and Domain of Anguish quests. Unfortunately, I don't know the lore from those that fully, so I can't really say if the two theories conflict or not- some of the regulars here would probably be able to answer that more fully. But in any case, I do think there may be at least a tentative link between Primordus and the Titans regarding Dragon's Gullet.|||On one hand, I'm inclined to disagree with your theory about Dragon's Gullet. The Guild Wars 2 storyline would have been written long after that area was named (although it's possible a much, much different variation of it occuring much sooner was planned and canned, or so to speak), and remember, Primordus is different from Abaddon in that he is from before the gods even visited Tyria - he can't have been erased from the histories of Tyria because he is from a time before history was even recorded.
The lore we have so far tells us that Abaddon created the Titans in the Foundry of Failed Creations, that they were released sometime in the past, that they were sealed behind the Door of Komalie and that they were (mostly) wiped out with the defeat of Mallyx. Also remember that the Destroyers are not direct minion of Primordus, rather spawns of the Great Destroyer, who is.
On the other hand, new evidence has come to light which creates a VERY interesting link between the elder dragons, Titans, and by association, Abaddon. That link is the Searing. Let me show you an extract from the Ecology of the Charr, with the most relevant bits bolded.
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Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed. Yet when the Charr saw the humans worshiping gods–and receiving power from them–they blamed this power for the humans’ victory. Only with such powers on their side could the humans have ever defeated the Charr.
So, in order to fight the human threat, the Charr sought a god of their own. Two hundred years before the Searing, the Burnt warband, a group dedicated to the Flame Legion, ventured to the lands surrounding the Hrangmer volcano (translated to human, the name means “Jaws of Oblivion”). Upon its return, the warband claimed to have found gods for the Charr at long last.
Eager for a new purpose and filled with pride, members of the Flame Legion swore allegiance to these new gods, converting or destroying anyone who stood in their path. One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last earned new magic, a new means of destroying their human enemies south of the Wall.
In the end, the Shamans of the rival legions met in secret, unified their differences, and swore to force each legion to follow these new gods. As one, they returned to their individual city-states and convinced their people to worship the Titans–all save for one Charr named Bathea Havocbringer. This heroine, whose strength and Warrior ability had made her a leader among the Blood Legion, fought against this sacrilege and was killed for it by the Shamans, her execution a sacrifice to the new gods.
Because of Bathea’s disobedience to the new order, all females of her legion–and, in short order, all females among the Charr–were removed from warbands and armies, reduced to performing utility tasks at home in the cities of the legionnaires. Although they chafed at this restriction and resented being denied their right to battle against the humans, the Shamans, acting on “hold orders,” were by this time entirely in control of the legions.
When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied.With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forced by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.
The Shamans trusted in the power of the Titans and their hold over the Charr legions–and truly, the devastation they caused to the human kingdoms gave the Charr the advantage they have been waiting to seize for a thousand years. With the Cauldron, the Shamans summoned titanic crystal meteors to rain down upon their enemies, ravaging farmland and shattering the Wall.
You may notice I highlighted this:
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So, in order to fight the human threat, the Charr sought a god of their own. Two hundred years before the Searing, the Burnt warband, a group dedicated to the Flame Legion, ventured to the lands surrounding the Hrangmer volcano (translated to human, the name means “Jaws of Oblivion”). Upon its return, the warband claimed to have found gods for the Charr at long last.
Although not entirely relevant, this is interesting. It carries the implication that the Titans had an entry point into Tyria OTHER than the Door of Komalie. It is also stated later on in the article that the Flame Legion built their capital city near Hrangmer after Kalla Scorchrazor's rebellion. It could also mean that the Titans somehow survived the defeat of Abaddon and Mallyx - if there's another entry point to Tyria, it could also mean there are more Titans out there.
And just in case you missed that last bit:
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It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.
It is already known and implicitly stated in the article that without the Titans, the magic to cause the Searing would not have been accessible to the Charr (indeed, it was thought until now the Titans directly created the magic) and the Seaing could not have happened. However, this article suggests differently. In fact, that extract I quoted heavily (and intentionally, I'll wager) implies that the elder dragons had a direct part in the creation of the magic that caused the Searing, which was previously thought to be of Abaddonian origin.
This is interesting because it creates a direct link between the elder dragons and the Titans, and by extension, Abaddon. This raises a lot more questions than it answers, such as the true age and nature of Abaddon (not to mention the other gods), the truth behind the Searing, and (perhaps most interestingly) whether the threat of the Titans has truly passed or not.|||Quote:
On one hand, I'm inclined to disagree with your theory about Dragon's Gullet. The Guild Wars 2 storyline would have been written long after that area was named (although it's possible a much, much different variation of it occuring much sooner was planned and canned, or so to speak), and remember, Primordus is different from Abaddon in that he is from before the gods even visited Tyria - he can't have been erased from the histories of Tyria because he is from a time before history was even recorded.
On the contrary, I'm willing to bet that the developers had come up with the elder dragons as part of the GW mythos from the start. Just because we hadn't seen any evidence for it before Eye of the North doesn't mean they hadn't come up with it. A good writer/world-creator always comes up with more content than he thinks he'll use, so when he needs to expand his world he has additional stuff to fall back on instead of having to make up new material on the spot. Who knows, maybe the dragons were originally intended to be the main villains of Chapter 4 or 5.
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On the other hand, new evidence has come to light which creates a VERY interesting link between the elder dragons, Titans, and by association, Abaddon. That link is the Searing. Let me show you an extract from the Ecology of the Charr, with the most relevant bits bolded.
Thanks for that- I had read that article before, but I guess it didn't click until now.
Hrangmar is almost certainly not in the Ring of Fire, unless the Charr were a sea-faring race in the past or they borrowed the Mursaat's/Asuran's teleporters (none of which seem very likely to me). I suppose we'll have a better idea of where it is when we learn the location of the Flame Legion's capitol for GW2.
In any case, I agree- it definitely implies that the Titans had multiple entrances to Tyria. (Which makes sense now that I think about it- otherwise how would the Charr ever have met a Titan to make effigies of?)
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It is already known and implicitly stated in the article that without the Titans, the magic to cause the Searing would not have been accessible to the Charr (indeed, it was thought until now the Titans directly created the magic) and the Seaing could not have happened. However, this article suggests differently. In fact, that extract I quoted heavily (and intentionally, I'll wager) implies that the elder dragons had a direct part in the creation of the magic that caused the Searing, which was previously thought to be of Abaddonian origin.
Wow, that's a lot better supporting evidence than I was hoping for
Of course, it doesn't explicitly state a relationship between the Titans and the "ancient entities"- it just said that the Cauldron was used to summon the magic of the Titans, which might mean that the Cauldron is a thing of Titan magic, or it might just have been used as a focus to call upon the Titan magic.
All of this makes me think back to the old discussions about whether there was a link between the Searing and Glint (due to the crystals that destroyed Ascalon resembling those from Glint's lair). If the Searing was caused by elder dragon magic, then that begins to make a bit more sense.
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This is interesting because it creates a direct link between the elder dragons and the Titans, and by extension, Abaddon. This raises a lot more questions than it answers, such as the true age and nature of Abaddon (not to mention the other gods), the truth behind the Searing, and (perhaps most interestingly) whether the threat of the Titans has truly passed or not.
Agreed with that last part- we definitely don't know enough to make any solid theories, and we probably won't get the full story until at least GW2's release. I suspect that the full story involving the Titans hasn't been told yet, though.|||While it may have no bearing whatsoever on Guild Wars lore, I'd like to point out that the Titans of Greek mythology preceded the pantheon of gods. While the current lore from the Domain of Anguish seems to debunk the theory that the Titans were created by Primordius before the coming of the gods, it would fit in with the mythology from which the name 'Titan' was derived.|||Quote:
While it may have no bearing whatsoever on Guild Wars lore, I'd like to point out that the Titans of Greek mythology preceded the pantheon of gods. While the current lore from the Domain of Anguish seems to debunk the theory that the Titans were created by Primordius before the coming of the gods, it would fit in with the mythology from which the name 'Titan' was derived.
That would imply that the titans themselves are a step above the gods on the divinity scale, which is most definitely not the case- our mortal players can dispatch them with relative ease. The elder dragons seem like they fit the role of Greek Titans much better.
Besides, as Santax said, Abaddon (supposedly) created the Titans, which means that the Titans cannot predate the gods- Abaddon couldn't create the Titans before he existed.|||Is it possible that Abaddon was a minion of one of the Dragons (in the same way that the Great Destroyer is to Primordus) before becoming a god? That could then explain the connection between Abaddon and the Titans, as they would be his spawns, just like the Destroyers are the Great Destroyer's spawns.
It would also explain him having the power of a god, or at least the ability to defeat a god and to take their place.|||While the Greek titans were from before the pantheon (possibly as will GW's), the similarity may end there. The Destroyers bear an uncanny rememblance to the Titans, yet the Titans can access any element.
For the sake of clarification, it should be pointed out that there are multiple dragons, perhaps encompassing multiple elements. Perhaps the Titans are a sort of jack-of-all-trades minion of the dragons. And who knows, who's to say that the titans musn't call upon the power of a dragon to 'bond' with the element. Humans call upon the power of Gods, for example, and the Margonites are proof that sometimes the change is immense.
The Realm of Torment is a place where Abaddon was trapped in. While he may have learnt to control the Titans (and let's face it, they 'obey' as it suits them), is there anything to suggest he created them? (not rhetorical. Is there?)
They follow the Scepter of Orr, and nothing else. We do now know that there happens to be Orrian dragon, but further more, it has a twin, and neither are stated to be created by the Gods, only assumed. The Forgotton Vissh Rakissh states, in the quest surrounding the Staff of the Mists, that "...the scepter and its twin, the Scepter of Orr, were created long ago, when this desert was still an ocean". No mention of the Gods there.
I suppose my point is, the dragons are capable of twisting the world to it's own will. The Scepter of Orr and Staff of the Mists are said to have similar powers, along with being the controller of the Titans.
- The Titans are, according to the official wiki, 'constructs', albeit rather intelligent ones, and older than anyone knows. At some point in there lifespan they bond with the element around them.
- The Titans are furthermore considered failed creations, but by who we don't know. The name of foundry suggests creation, but it's more like a prison. The titans were capable of escape throught the Door of Komalie, transporting to a volcano in the Ring of Fire.
- The Charr apparently first encountered the Titans at, conveniently enough, another volcano. Whether it's a different door we don't know. That we were conveniently not told is a tad bit annoying, to be honest.
- The Destroyers are a hivemind-entity controlled by the Great Destroyer of great mythos, yet merely a general under Primordius. As such, the Destroyers could quite possibly be defined as constructs. And the Dwarves? Well, they were born for that shiznit.
- All these retcons and Xanatos Roulettes are making my head hurt.
[*]The Titans are furthermore considered failed creations, but by who we don't know. The name of foundry suggests creation, but it's more like a prison. The titans were capable of escape throught the Door of Komalie, transporting to a volcano in the Ring of Fire.
so I'm taking that the foundry was komalie?|||I think it is more likely that Abaddon used a power that was copied/learned of from Primordius. So the magic came from the elder dragon, or at least it was the key to drawing it out of the Mists, then the "god" took that knowledge and bent it for his own army.
This is why they are failed creations. And yes, this also links directly to Dragon's Gullet, and why it would be the Titan's Source.
Let's say that Abaddon had to start there at Dragon's Gullet, where there was a wellspring of this power. Obviously, make and learn to use the "creation magic" there... and by the time of our Heroes, Abaddon had already learned how to use the magic enough to draw the creation process into his own realm.
My theory might not fully work, but this is a great linking. Great find, idea!|||Quote:
I think it is more likely that Abaddon used a power that was copied/learned of from Primordius. So the magic came from the elder dragon, or at least it was the key to drawing it out of the Mists, then the "god" took that knowledge and bent it for his own army.
This is why they are failed creations. And yes, this also links directly to Dragon's Gullet, and why it would be the Titan's Source.
Let's say that Abaddon had to start there at Dragon's Gullet, where there was a wellspring of this power. Obviously, make and learn to use the "creation magic" there... and by the time of our Heroes, Abaddon had already learned how to use the magic enough to draw the creation process into his own realm.
My theory might not fully work, but this is a great linking. Great find, idea!
The beginning part of your post remarkably makes the most sense of the various accounts I've read regarding the Titans and their status as Failed Creations. However, we know that the Titans are tortured souls that retain sentience and form of the elements around them. So you may be right in that the area was utilized for the "creation magic" and as you pretty much said he pretty much refined it there.
Although it's not completely clear as to whether the Titans form themselves through their own ability or if it is a forceful outside influence that does so.
I suppose, basically, we could say the following.
Destroyer-Precursor to Titans. What the Titans were based off of. More refined version. Far more effective at what their name states than Titans.
Titans-Based off of Destroyers. Not as refined as Destroyers. Almost as effective as Destroyers.
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