Author�s Note: This thread is not to claim the origin of the individual dungeons, but instead the origin of the structures within them.
The idea of this research came from a discussion where it is believed that the Seers were the creators of the Eye of the North. During said discussion, a fact was pointed out saying that, if the Seers had any structure, it would most likely be based on that fact. I am not here to say that the Seers are connected to that fact � which was the description for the Iron Mines of Moladune area � but instead expanding on that fact.
There is another known fact of the dungeon structures: The race which made these existed before humans came to Tyria � whether they did after humans showed, is unknown. This explains why the structures are underground. Many cases you see pillars or walls going into the rock. They were not built like this, but instead sunk into the group overtime and eventually were excavated by the Asura and the Dwarves (or in some cases, not excavated but were turned into cavern-like locations).
Here we have a note of a mysterious civilization that had a city created purely of Ice and Stone. This is believed to be linked to the Seers due to the proximity of the first Seer seen. This I�ll leave up to debate, I personally agree with said theory, but as I said, that is not the point of this article.
The first Ice and Stone structure seen in game
Now that we have the starting idea covered � that is, the city of Ice and Stone � I bring to you the next piece of evidence and the first structure or object made of ice and stone that is visible in the game: The Ice Pillar found in Ice Cliff Chasms.
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As you can see in that picture, the statue�s base contains both ice and stone in the same shape.
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This is also seen in the surrounding blocks as seen above.
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Then, as you look up the center pillar, you see a creature covered or carved in ice. This ice is of a different texture than the lower ice. More of snow and ice � permafrost is even possible. One can make two deductions out of this: Different material was used to make a statue � perhaps a combination of the stone and the ice (thus making a permafrost-like material); or it is a creature who was captured by the makers of this ice and stone thus created a prison for it.
Enter the Dungeon
While looking along the entire surface, no more ice and stone structures are seen. It is possible that they eroded over time, or they met the same fate as Moladune.
However, if you take the search closer to the ground � or in fact underneath it � one can find more ice structures. I am sure all of you who have Guild Wars: Eye of the North you all know what I am talking about by now. That�s right: the Far Shiverpeaks Dungeons.
In these dungeons one can find mysterious and unexplained ice structures. These ice structures range from huge (clearly unnatural) blocks of ice that line the walls to diamond-shaped ice that either floats or are stuck into the ground. They even appear as small spires (above which are the floating diamond-shaped ice) and long bar-like pieces. Every dungeon one enters in the Far Shiverpeaks holds these. But, as the dungeons hold the same five or so large maps � and only show different portions of them � we cannot say all those dungeons have portions created by this mysterious race. So I shall not say that.
Dungeon Maps
There are four types of dungeon maps found in the Far Shiverpeaks dungeons � natural snow dungeons, and three non-natural snow dungeons.
Unfortunately, I cannot find the full maps of the dungeon maps, so I cannot show which ones are the natural, or the three non-natural snow dungeons. However, I can tell you that of the three unnatural snow dungeons, only two pertain to this instance. So instead of looking at the individual dungeons for where the structures are, let us look at the entirety of the ice and stone structure maps and the whole structure of said map. Thus we shall ignore location and purpose of the dungeons (along with enemies found within, blocked passageways, and the various objects � except for rare occasions which will be brought up later).
Ice Structures in the Dungeons
There are several structures of both stone and ice in these dungeons.
Spoiler
The first and most notable are the walls. These are shone in pure blocks of a dark bluish green ice (i.e., ice covering stone). These are also similar to the ground, which is an even darker bluish color � though the ground is not a flat surface like the walls, nor is it in blocks. The second pictures shows that there are also blocks of ice which are of a lighter blue color in different dungeons. This is most likely just plain ice, unlike the first picture which appears to be ice covering stone (as mentioned).
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In the first of these two pictures, we see the same ice-blocks, but this time it�s different. They are covering bricks and are not completely ice. It is possible the other ice-blocks are the same, but the bricks are further. If this is the case, the structures were made of stone and ice, the stone being the main support, and the ice being the insulators of the walls.
In the second picture, we see even more of the bricks and something even more interesting: gargoyles. Though this is not the only location we see them in this dungeon. We shall come back to those in a bit. I direct your attention to the bricks themselves. Look familiar? If you played Prophecies, they should. Let me give you a better hint:
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Yes, they are the same bricks (thus textures) as used in Kurzick structures; although these bricks are of a different color. The gargoyle is also seen throughout Ascalon (primarily the Catacombs). This will be covered more in depth later on.
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Here we see the intricate crystal-like system of ice (or ice-like) designs that exist throughout the dungeons. Along with that, we see the all-too-common and just as equally mysterious face. Then we also see what the Asura Xapp says on such structures. Implying that the Norn created them � but that could be wrong!
Author�s Note: The pictures of the crystal-like ice designs are from two different dungeon maps (i.e., not repeated content compared to just each other)
Mid-creation Note: Leon has suggested that the darker colored ice structures could be jade or something of the like. This would still go along with the idea of �Ice and Stone Structures�.
We know, by location, that the walls and these intricate structures are connected. But, there is an issue. Where is the stone? Well, it is right next to the structures.
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Outside the room with the largest amount of the aforementioned ice structures, we see a series of stone structures. First and most curious is the statue of Grenth � which is made out of stone. But that raises the question of why there? Well, hold on Mr. hasty. I will get to that later.
We then see the next easy to spot structure � and most common: the snake-wrapped pillars. These are most easily spotted in three locations in the Far Shiverpeaks: next to the Grenth statues, in the Battle Depths near Jalis, and in Jaga Morain in the wurm breeding ground. Both those in the Battle Depths and in Jaga Morain are all messed up and knocked over � though those in Jaga are in worse condition. And that is the last picture above.
So, am I done? No! Not in the least.
�Snake Pillars� elsewhere
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The Snake Pillars are seen a just a few other dungeons. The first seen of such is�! That�s right, the dungeon which you go in on the way to the Eye of the North. There is a long corridor with those pillars. To the left, you see a golden statue of Melandru. In the corridor, you see a Dwayna mural (shown in picture). To the right, you meet Ogden, and to the right of there, you see a Balthazar mural in a room lit up to be fiery. Remember the statues of Grenth? With just two dungeons we now have four of the five (no, I will not count any concept arts of Abaddon with a scythe) �True Gods� � even with the unknown time of origin know that Grenth was and Dhuum was not though. There is also Shards of Orr, which has a statue of Balthazar � though this could be corsair addition, there is also an ice dungeon in which a mural of Dwayna is found. An interesting fact: There are no murals or statues anywhere in the Depths.
Through this, we can safely assume that one of two things occurred:
- The original builders were worshipers of the six gods
- After the original builders left (whenever that was), worshipers of the five/six gods entered and put murals and statues into these underground structures.
There are still more dungeons with these snake pillars. �But they are just pillars and the dungeons reuse textures all over� you may say. But I say in return: Of all the pillars usable, including some even used in the Catacombs and Sorrow�s Furnace, why use these? The answer is simple:
The other dungeons with these snake pillars were originally made by the same creator. So which dungeons hold these pillars? Unimportant! For now, that is. Like above, I will just link the structures.
In a portion of Vloxen Excavations level 3 (which is shared with Thommis� level in Slavers�), we see more of those snake-pillars. However, there is something else: Pillars of the same design without snakes wrapping around them.
Cathedral of Flames
If there is any dungeon we can take for canonical lore, it is Cathedral of Flames, level three. This level, excluding the circular graveyard (which is still canon to the location), is used only in this dungeon. There are two distinct things to note about this: Most of the level is a giant singular building with no detachment from the building. This is the Cathedral itself, I believe.
Now, this dungeon has one singular distinct thing which makes it appear as the oldest of all the dungeons:
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Here we see the pillars without snakes. This is the only dungeon level which has only these snake-less pillars. The reason why we can consider the Cathedral within the Cathedral of Flames as the oldest has a second reason as well:
Vloxen Excavations
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Vloxen Excavations is, like the Cathedral, another dungeon which is canon to location. What we see here is the second oldest set of the structures. What is most special about Vloxen Excavations is that the second level can be taken with canonicity as well (though not so much in location, as what is there). Whichever group made these structures, came from northern Ascalon and traveled to north of Kryta. My support for this comes in a few notes and deductions taken in from the dungeon:
- The pillars without the snakes are only seen in these two dungeons � thus, of those with the pillars, these dungeons are the oldest.
- Vloxen Excavations is known to be ancient (from dialogue and the undead�s names)
- Something had to trap Zoldark in this location, this same something, more than likely, would not stay here: thus, would spread.
Number three is the reasoning of why Zoldark is further away from the oldest structures than other dungeons are.
Aside from these pillars, there are two distinct structures in both level 2 and 3 of the dungeon (level 1 doesn�t appear to have any structures). Due to the lack of repetition of the area of level 3, and that being the level with these two different pillars, I�ll start there.
Spoiler
This picture shows an interesting object found here � what appears to be a reddish green stone levitated by some orange beam and a small pedestal. But that�s not the focus of the picture � the focus for me presenting this picture is the background (because I was too ignorant at the time to take a picture of those walls) which is of the same design as the Tarnished Coast ruins. These structures run along every wall in this portion of the dungeon.
Then those ruins run into another type of structure. It is not just here that these two are put side by side. In every dungeon in which we see these �Tarnished Coast ruins� we also see Ascalonian structures!
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The above three pictures are in the same circular room: The room in which Zoldark the Unholy is sealed within. In the first picture, you see the snake-pillars. In the second and third you see two other things. Look familiar? Well, I said they can be found in Ascalon � specifically, the Catacombs:
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If you remember the Catacombs, you�d remember the room with all the coffins. Another thing I�d like to point out is those coffins. Those in the Catacombs are of the same design as those found in the second level of Vloxen Excavations (which is also seen in Heart of the Shiverpeaks level 1, Rragar�s Menagerie level 2, and Ooze Pits) as seen below:
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Going back to the fact that the �Tarnished Coast ruins� and the �Ascalon ruins� are always so close together, the best case is the second case: The same dungeons with those coffin copies also hold these two structures together. However, there are few cases of the snake-pillars (though they are there) throughout these dungeons as well. Below are various pictures:
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The first two shows objects which are found in the Catacombs, the second of which shows the design of the �Tarnished Coast ruins� along with them. The third, fourth, and fifth shows the slight differences between the �Tarnished Coast ruins� bricks and the bricks found throughout the Catacombs, which includes the large tower-like amount of bricks seen in the fourth picture (in the picture it is tilted).
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I would like to bring this picture back up. If you notice, you once more see those same bricks used in the Catacombs. This is yet another connection between the �Ice structures� and these other structures.
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Another connection to the �Ice structures� and the others is the statue in the picture above. It is found in one ice dungeon map (which can be seen in Frostmaw�s Burrow�s third level) along with the �introduction dungeon� and Shards of Orr in the dungeon with a lot of crystals found. Though this could be a human-made structure (see: Origin of the Norn for an implication of how it got in the Far Shiverpeaks).
However, only that room can be singled out in Shards of Orr (the other rooms are shared with other dungeons or hold little importance).
Return to Cathedral of Fire
Some non-pillar structures which are seen only in the third level of this dungeon (though also very familiar to other structures) are in the two following pictures:
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In the first picture, we see the common cylinder pillar, but the design seen in a loop is different! Compare to this picture:
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In the second picture, we see a new �Tarnished Coast� like rectangular pillar/structure, but again, with a unique design. This design isn�t seen only in this dungeon, however. It is also seen in Vloxen Excavations and somewhere most people do not think of looking when thinking of the Depths (I only saw it by chance) � Boreal Station (the pedestals which we stand on during the hero training quest to be exact).
One final thing to cover with the snake pillars is Sorrow�s Furnace. In the southwest corner of the dungeon one can see a series of ruins. In here includes a new form of the snake pillars. These snake pillars can also be seen in the middle northern section which is half buried and goes off of a cliff:
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As one can see from these, these pillars are far different from both of the previous versions. When the snake aspect the pillars are reached, the engravings disappear and the pillars underneath the snakes are flat. This is the only locations in which this occurs, and thus are the most recent of the structures seen.
Oh, Brave New Influences
Throughout various dungeons we see various Ascalonian structures, and these structures, while connected easily to the Catacombs, exists among things such as the Great Wall. These ranges from various designs mentioned above and even more structures.
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You can see this good old face seen throughout Ascalon. This face can be seen in the Cathedral of Flames, Vloxen Excavations and a few other dungeons as well. In the picture you can also see more snake-less pillars (these are from the second level of the dungeon), however, the location of these two pillars are in dungeons which are not so sure of how canon the dungeons are (Arachni�s, Shards of Orr, and the dungeon orgy known as Slavers�).
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This is from Sorrow�s Furnace the arch, the doorway, and the pillars are all Ascalonian structures. These are also excavated ruins which are next to the snake pillars mentioned above. The pillars are mostly (or perhaps only, I have not been to every corner of Tyria to be certain) in either Sorrow�s Furnace, or in the Catacombs in Pre-Searing. The pillars in the Catacombs:
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The arch with the waterfall behind it can be seen throughout Ascalon, and in the Echovald Forest.
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If you remember the Kurzick structures in Raven�s Point which I showed before, then there isn�t much to explain. However, something which should be explained is that with all those bricks which copy the Kurzick structures is something which is not Kurzick � the Ascalonian Gargoyles which are found throughout the Catacombs in Pre-Searing and the Catacombs in Gwen�s Story.
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Here is a picture from the first dungeon (where one meets Ogden and Vekk) in the room where Vekk comes out of. It is riddled with Kurzick structures � pillars and statues.
An interesting thing to note is that the challenge mission �Altrumm Ruins� holds structures which seem to predate the Kurzick structures and are in fact the origin of influence of the modern Kurzick structures. This is not fact, however, but going on this in-game theory, the Kurzick structures were influenced by something. What is that something? Well, take a look:
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First picture are bricks which match those found in Raven�s Point. The second picture shows the Kurzick gargoyle-like statue which is found in the first dungeon (both dungeon cases also have Ascalonian Gargoyles nearby), and the third picture is a modified arch of the ones which is seen in Sorrow�s Furnace and throughout Ascalon.
Spoiler
The pillars are also found in Altrumm Ruins, along with them are more modified versions of the arches.
Lastly, as shown here, there are a good amount of links between Kurzick and Ascalonian structures. Previously thought to be caused during the Canthan and Ascalonian contact previously made before Cantha went isolationist for the first time (see: Timeline), there now may be an entirely new reason: The structures of the Kurzicks and the Ascalonians were implied by the same origin � the structures now found in the Depths of Tyria and Altrumm Ruins.
This possible connection means that this race at least had influences much further than the continent of Tyria. There is only one such race which is known to have such a large influence: The Forgotten. However, the steps which exist in the Depths go against this. So whatever this race was had influence that exceeds the Forgotten (as the structures are used throughout the known world of Tyria).
The different structure versions
There are a large variety of structures used in the Depths � this caused a lot of skepticism on if the Depths can be viewed as canon lore or not. I have three explanations for this occurrence while keeping it as canon lore.
- The different structures, like the different versions of the snake pillars, come from different time period. This is possible as the oldest dungeon (the now Cathedral of Flames) has no �Tarnished Coast ruins� while the second oldest (the now Vloxen Excavations) has plenty of it, the deeper the more, and that kind of structures are found in other more recent structures. However, the most recent (Sorrow�s Furnace and the Catacombs) do not.
- The different structures come from different influences or evolutions. This implies one of two things:
- There were other races around and the different locations are influenced by said races in the locations.
- Like humanity, there were different ethnicities which �evolved� different ways and the only thing which stayed between the different groups of this race is the snake pillars.
- The combination of the two: There were both influences, and the time caused the differences. There are slight differences between the Tarnished Coast ruins found in the CTC and Tarnished coast and those found in other locations in the Depths (Vloxen Excavations for instance).
The Catacombs
These structures are the best candidates for being the most recent of the Depths of Tyria. However, there is something interesting here. In just one area of the Catacombs we see a completely irrelevant kind of structure:
Spoiler
These structures only found in the area of the Statue of Grenth not surrounded by poison is the same structure found in the Rift � specifically the maps that lead to the Hall of Heroes and there are some also in the Underworld � in fact, the Underworld also holds some Ascalonian structures. This implies the creators:
- Either had influences from the gods on their structures beyond a couple statues and murals.
- Could have eventually moved on into the Rift and made those structures.
The first idea is more likely, though the second idea could explain where this race went. Or it could be a third option:
- The Catacombs is in fact the oldest of the Depths and this mysterious race came from the Rift much like the Forgotten did, and built those structures before the Catacombs.
The structures of the Rift do in fact look older, so it is possible.
The Mysterious Builders
Little is known about the makers of these structures. A list of known information on this race (or group of races):
- The race was widespread throughout Tyria and Cantha, possibly Elona as well.
- The race predates humanity.
- There are three cases of humanoid statues (see: Humanoid Statues below).
- The structures include steps, so the race most likely had legs.
- The race most likely had a strong control over the elements (questionable) and especially magic.
- The race is not the Asura, Dwarves, or the Forgotten.
- Best known candidate races are the Seer and Mursaat (more favor for the Seers as brought up at the beginning).
- Best overall candidate race is an unknown, now-extinct, race.
Basically, the following will be other observations that I couldn’t fit in above due to the flow of thoughts. Didn't have room in the first post (went over by exactly 2,000 characters), so moved this to second post.
More Ice Structures and Ice Pillars connections, or are they?
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A more strict connection between the ice dungeons and the Ice Pillar would be the above pictures. Notice the pillar-like clumps within the Ice Pillar, these are seen in a good amount of ice dungeons as well. But this brings up a question: Are these natural or artificially made? We can see these types of structures throughout not just Tyria, but also in the Underworld, the Catacombs, various dungeons, the Desolation even. Whether these are creature-made or natural, I’ll leave up to you.
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But the thicker portions, however, are only seen in a handful of places – all in Eye of the North, and only in one location above ground: The Ice Pillar. The others are underground, such as here: The Central Transfer Chamber, where they are here in a very large amount.
Another location is shown below, once more, in Vloxen Excavations:
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More connections between the Ice Structures and the other structures
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This staircase, seen in a couple ice dungeons (obviously) is also seen in the second level of Vloxen Excavations. This suggests yet another “Ice and Stone” connection.
“Tarnished Coast” Ruins
The ruins in the Tarnished Coast match those found throughout the Depths, from the Vloxen Excavations to the Heart of the Shiverpeaks and the Central Transfer Chamber. One set of ruins found in Arbor Bay are also sunken a bit – underground but not in the Depths of Tyria. I believe these structures are of the same origin, possibly not as old though.
Humanoid Statues
There are three humanoid statues found throughout the Depths. The first:
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These are seen only one spot (though three dungeons due to map sharing), but also have no known connection to other things. These may in fact be depictions of this unknown race. However, due to the lack of knowledge on both the origin of the Depths and on the statues, this cannot be certain. The structure of these statues:
- 3 fingers plus thumbs
- Elongated faces
- Their head is elongated in the upper back of their skull.
The second:
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(Picture is from Altrumm Ruins for closeness) These are seen in one spot in the Depths, but throughout the Echovald Forest, including the Altrumm Ruins which predates the Kurzick structures and possibly influence Kurzick Structures. The structure of these statues:
- Horns
- Wings
- Else wise normal human upper body.
The third:
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These statues are seen in multiple dungeons in the Depths of Tyria (none of which are copied over). And all three locations are impossible for a single modern race to go to and mimic the statue in all three locations. This implying the original race crafted this. The structure of these statues is perfectly human looking.
The relevance of these statues in comparison to the Depths’ origin is unknown.
Completely unrelated… ramps and stairs?
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Of all structures we see, there is two which are only seen one time. And they are nothing like their surroundings. They stick out like sore thumbs.|||If we're allowed to comment here, then let me say great job! This is an impressive article. I didn't read -everything- (I decided to read it during a break from a program), but I read most of it, and it's not only a beautiful assortment of screenshots but also extensive attention to detail and patterns in all of that architecture.
I don't know much about the race of Seers (if anyone does, and I'm going to look for a thread on them sometime soon), but for some reason I doubt it was the Mursaat who did all this. They do fit criteria #2, but it seems uncharacteristic of them: I would expect symbols of Janthir and some of their "blood-jade" (whatever the correct term is) somewhere. Unless of course, they took over very early on in their race's history - which is quite possible, since we know Glint is a lying cheat.
Anyway, great job again!
(if this space is needed for more research, then let it be deleted)|||There were a couple things I left out, mainly due to being so out of place, including a different kind of pillar which is a single block (and a large one at that), along with one (just one) structure which has the structure of the Temple of Balthazar/Grenth and the Hall of Judgement. I didn't think the pillar was that relevant (aside from the concept of the race able to craft and haul large blocks), and the one case is too rare in the dungeons.
I may add some more stuff, but I got more room in the "Add-On" second post (about 2800 characters at most).|||You wouldn't happen to mean these pillars, would you?
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Found in the Cathedral of Flames as well, if I'm not mistaken.|||Cathedral of Flames is the only spot in the Depths with the object. And no, not the pillars. That CoF object would be the "one (just one) structure which has the structure of the Temple of Balthazar/Grenth and the Hall of Judgement."
The pillars would be non-existent in the CoF, but is constant in HoS level 1 (aka Ooze Pits, Vloxen Excavations level 2, aka Arachni's Haunt level 2). I sadly deleted the pictures of those pillars.
Also, Leon, you disappointed me, I expected you to go on how the Depths cannot be considered canon lore because they are all copy pasting of maps or something.
|||What's there to argue? All you did was lay out a bunch of screenshots and speculation, which we cannot currently argue for or against with the data we presently have. And that aside, you would seem to have overlooked something interesting, which may be of no significance:
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See highlighted statues. Not sure what those are supposed to be exactly, but I don't recall having seen them anywhere else.|||Thought I included those. Those are from the Kurzick area if I remember correctly.
Also: There are things to argue - i.e., main points of the research:
- The Depths are of the same origin (i.e., race) - which includes the city of Moladune
- The Ascalonian, Asuran, and Kurzick structures are (apparently highly) influenced by the Depths and thus this ancient race.
- The most likely race being the Seers
Humanoid Statues
There are three humanoid statues found throughout the Depths. The first:
Spoiler
Now this is interesting. Looks like a character model inserted into an environment, like the Ashford Abbey ghost. Could be from Utopia?
ANet recycled a lot of the art assets, like the faces in the walls at the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, it could be that this race of stone humanoids were a race in Utopia.
Maybe we haven't seen the last of these, either. A Sylvari is shown waking a monster up from stone in the trailer.|||Quote:
Also: There are things to argue - i.e., main points of the research:
Alright, if you insist.
Quote:
- The Depths are of the same origin (i.e., race) - which includes the city of Moladune
We've not actually seen the architecture of the city of Moladune, thus we cannot say that they belong to the same origin as the architecture seen in the Depths.
Quote:
- The Ascalonian, Asuran, and Kurzick structures are (apparently highly) influenced by the Depths and thus this ancient race.
This is a problem of the chicken or the egg. We don't know what actual Asuran architecture looks like with certainty, thus we cannot say with any certainty that it is influenced by the architecture of the Depths and this mysterious ancient race. Also, we don't know just how much of the architecture of Altrumm Ruins is that of unknown origin, thus we cannot distinguish which is Kurzick and which is what they based their architecture off of. With Ascalon, we never saw the evolution of their architecture over time, and we have no evidence of any mysterious ruins aside from the Catacombs to even begin to suggest that their architecture was based off that of another civilization.
Quote:
- The most likely race being the Seers
...And, we have no idea what any Seer architecture would even begin to look like, nor have we any firm support that they were the architects and inhabitants of Moladune, thus we cannot count this amongst the most likely without falling into the Grimoire Fallacy. That is, associating a mysterious race with likewise mysterious objects without any solid or firm support besides location, appearance, or scant evidence.
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